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Dave:
We talk a lot about the housing market, but what about the other real estate market? You know, the one that’s worth $24 trillion, um, of course talking about commercial real estate, including multifamily assets. Commercial real estate is a market that has struggled as of late. Some would even go so far as to say that it has crashed, and frankly, I wouldn’t argue with them. But as we sit here in 2026, commercial real estate may be poised for a rebound. So today, we’re digging into the outlook for commercial real estate in 2026 and exploring the potential opportunities that could exist for real estate investors in the coming years.
Hey, everyone. Welcome to On The Market. I’m Dave Meyer, real estate investor, housing market analyst, and chief investment officer here at BiggerPockets. Now, on this show, we usually talk about residential real estate because that’s frankly what most people in the BiggerPockets community, the people who listen to the show, invest in. But I know from talking to you all, this community all the time that many of you currently invest in, or at least aspire to invest in multifamily, meaning anything five units or bigger, maybe self-storage or even retail or office space in some cases. And that aspiration or the reason you invest in those things already is with good reason. Commercial real estate can offer, frankly, scale that residential real estate just can’t do. It can offer opportunity. It can generate amazing returns, but it is really different from residential real estate. You can’t really apply any of the data or the information that we regularly share on this show about residential to the commercial real estate market.
Just look at the last couple of years, right? Commercial real estate has arguably crashed. You can’t argue that values have declined almost across the board, no matter what area of commercial e- real estate that you’re looking at. Meanwhile, the residential market is still holding up. They are totally different markets. And on the show, I’ve said a lot recently about my expectations for the residential market this year, but we haven’t really touched on commercial real estate yet for 2026. So in this episode, that’s what we’re gonna talk about. First, we’re gonna get into a brief history of what’s been going on in commercial real estate in the last couple of years. Then we’ll talk about the outlook for 2026. We’ll give you a bear case and a bull case what people are saying about whether commercial real estate is poised for a rebound. We’ll do a breakdown of which subclasses, you know, talking about self-storage or retail, office, multifamily.
Which of those subclasses of commercial real estate are set to perform the best in the coming year? And of course, we’ll end with recommendations and strategy tips for investors in the coming year. With that, let’s get into our first look at commercial real estate in 2026. So you may know this, but commercial real estate, it’s in a rut. Okay. To be fair, it’s in worse than the rut. It is probably crashed by most measures of a crash. That word doesn’t really mean much. No one has really defined it. But I think if values fall in any market, 20% more from peak to trough, it’s kind of hard to argue that it’s crashed. And that, I think, has happened in commercial real estate. It’s actually harder than you would think to get a single number of this, like how far values have crashed. And everyone is gonna say a little bit different depending on the data source that you look at.
But when I aggregate all the information out there, I could say pretty confidently that multifamily, at least on a national basis, pricing is down somewhere between 15 and 25%. It’s pretty big. Office is down even more. 25%, 35% I think is pretty reasonable across the board on a national basis. Some markets, you’ve probably heard some of these crazy stories. Some markets are seeing office values down more than 50%. Meanwhile, retail, self-storage, they’ve held up better, but they’re still down somewhere between 8% to 12% since they peaked in 2022. That’s pretty ugly, right? If you look across the board in commercial real estate, anyone who’s holding those assets is not really happy right now. But at the same time, you know, whenever you see prices drop this much, that often leads to the biggest opportunity. A discount on multifamily of 20%, that’s at least worth looking at, right?
That is something that you might wanna at least start underwriting. Massive discounts on office. It’s not my area of expertise, but there’s probably some good deals out there. You’re starting to see discounts on cash flowing assets. There is potentially some stuff to like here, but you have to invest sort of thinking or at least betting that things are gonna turn around, or at least at the very least, they’re not going to continue to decline. So the question is, is this gonna happen? Is this the time to jump into commercial real estate before prices start coming back and everyone jump back into the market? That’s the question that we’re going to answer today. And to do that, we need to first look at why prices are so depressed in the first place. And I’m gonna talk a little bit as we go about office and retail and self-storage, because those are popular in the BiggerPockets community.
But for now, I’m gonna focus on multifamily because that’s what we hear in the, on the market community mostly look at. And I just wanna be clear that there are different definitions of multifamily, but what, when we’re talking about commercial real estate, it means any property that has five units or more, because anything that is five units or above needs commercial pricing. You can’t go out and get a regular mortgage on a five unit, six unit, and above. Anything four units or less, you can, so that’s considered commercial. So when I say multifamily, I’m not talking about duplexes, triplexes, quadplexes, I’m talking about five and above. So with that, let’s talk about what the heck happened here in multifamily. There’s a couple things and I’m gonna break them each down for you. The first, probably can guess this, not a big surprise here, but is rates.
Multifamily is priced differently than residential real estate. Residential real estate is largely priced based on comps. What have other similar assets sold in similar neighborhoods for in recent months? That’s how you price a single family home. Same thing with a duplex, a triplex, or a quadplex. But multifamily is priced by a combination of net operating income, basically a, a measurement of your profits and cap rates. And when mortgage rates or interest rates on debt for real estate like commercial loans rise, so do cap rates. That’s just kinda how it works. It’s sort of complex, but I can give you a general idea of how this works. Cap rates, people have different definitions of them, but basically what they are are a reflection of market sentiment. They reflect how investors are feeling about risk, about opportunity, about value in the market that you’re working in. So let’s just say multifamily.
It’s a reflection of, do people feel like there’s a lot of risk or opportunity if there’s good value in the multifamily market? So because they’re a reflection of market sentiment, they’re always moving up and down based on a lot of different conditions. But one of the things that traditionally and pretty consistently pushes up cap rates is when the return of a risk-free asset increases. So there’s a couple terms in there that you should need to know, but a risk-free asset, there’s really no such thing, but generally in finance, people consider things like bonds as risk-free assets, especially US Treasury bonds because to date, the US has never defaulted on their loans. So when you look at, you can buy a 10-year US Treasury and get a four and a half percent return or a 4% return, that is as close to a risk-free investment as you can make.
And so when the value that you can get from buying one of those risk-free assets goes up, all other investments change, right? It should change your mindset because you’re saying, “Hey, I could go get four and a half percent for pretty much no risk.” That 5% cash on cash return for multifamily no longer sounds very good compared to buying a treasury because there’s so much more risk in multifamily than there is in buying a treasury. And so when bond yields go up, which they have a lot over the last couple of years, that’s what’s pushed mortgage rates up. When those treasury yields go up, it pushes cap rates up at the same time. Now, cap rates, whether high or low cap rates are good, really just depends on whether you’re a buyer or a seller. If you’re a buyer, you typically want to buy at a higher cap rate.
That means you are buying proportionally more cash flow and more profit for less money. If you are a seller, you want to sell at low cap rates because that means you are going to get more in terms of your sale price for every dollar of profit that your asset is producing. Now, I know that can sound confusing, so let’s just do a little bit of math here, and I think you will all understand this. So if you had a property that throws off, I’m gonna use a nice round number of $100,000 in net operating income. NOI, it’s just a measurement of how much profit you’re putting out. It doesn’t include CapEx, it doesn’t include financing costs. Just in your operating of the property, how much profit are you producing? So let’s, just for this example, we’re gonna say we have $100,000 in NOI, and you are selling that at a 4% cap rate.
The way you figure out the value of that property is you divide your net operating income, $100,000, by your cap rate of 4%, and that gets you your price, which would be $2.5 million. Now, it doesn’t always work exactly like that, but roughly, that’s how you get valuations in a lot of commercial real estate transactions. So two and a half million dollars at a 4% cap rate. Now, if that cap rate were to go up, say interest rates went up, which they did, this is pretty close to what’s actually happened, say that cap rate went up from 4% to 5%. Doesn’t sound like a lot, right? It’s just going from 4% to 5%. Then that math, if you now divide $100,000 in NOI by 5%, that value of that property drops to two million. It was at 2.5 million, and now it’s at two million.
That seemingly small difference in cap rates makes a huge difference in valuation. And for those who are math or numbers inclined, you probably see why this happened, right? We had a 25% increase in cap rate from four to 5%, and that led to a 25% decrease in valuation from 2.5 million down to two million. Now, that is just one example, and there is huge variance in cap rates regionally by asset class, but the general estimates right now are that cap rates went up 80 to 150 basis points, so 0.8% to 1.5%. And again, might not sound like a lot, but as you can imagine, and our example shows us, just that small change can really decrease valuations across the board. So that’s number one, is interest rates going up, the yield on treasury bonds going up, and therefore cap rates going up. That has really decreased pricing in multifamily.
The second thing that you need to know why prices are going down comes down to debt. Now, I talked about rates going up, but the debt structures matter here as well. There’s sort of two things going on with debt. First and foremost, over the last couple of months, lenders have really gotten a little bit stricter. They have tightened their underwriting, they have reduced their LTVs, their loan to value ratios, meaning that you can take out less debt to purchase a property. They have required higher debt service coverage ratio. So basically, it’s just harder to get debt than it was that makes it harder to pencil, which means there are less buyers, right? If someone wants to go out and sell a property, there’s gonna be less demand because even if those buyers are interested, they want to buy that asset, they might not be able to get the loan that they need to make that deal pencil, and that has decreased demand for multifamily assets.
That’s the first thing with debt. The second thing that’s going on with debt is that commercial real estate … Remember I said that we’re talking about five units and above because if you have a five unit or above, you have to use a commercial loan. Commercial debt is very different than residential debt. You typically cannot go out and get a 30-year fixed rate loan on a commercial asset. Usually, you are getting a adjustable rate mortgage with a balloon payment, and those loans can adjust at three years, five years, sometimes seven years. Now, you can imagine if you bought a property in 2020 or 2021, you had a really low rate. You might have had a three in front of your number, you might have had a four in front of your interest rate. Now, three years later, you’re adjusting to a rate that might have a seven in front of it.
It might have an eight in front of it, and that really hurts cash flow. It can actually create forced selling, like you probably hear these things in the news. There are multifamily operators that can no longer service their debt, and they have to sell their assets at a discount, and that puts downward pressure on pricing as well. Even if you can hold onto that debt, it just compresses cash flow, right? Because if you had an asset that was producing, let’s just call it a 10% cash on cash return with your old loan, and then your loan adjusts to a much higher interest rate, you are not making as much. And when someone comes along and looks at that deal and thinks about buying it, they’re like, “Actually, that’s not as good of a deal. I can’t pay as much for this asset as someone could three years ago when they were getting much better rates.” And again, that puts downward pressure on pricing.
So first two things, just as a reminder, are interest rates going up and the structure of debt and debt underwriting rules are two things that have pushed down multifamily prices. And the third is supply, right? So the supply of multifamily assets has gone through the roof. During the pandemic, developers were seeing, “Man, there is so much demand for housing. Rents are going up like crazy. I wanna build more multifamily.” They thought it was a very profitable time to build multifamily properties, and a lot of them did. We had one of the strongest pipelines of multifamily that we have seen in decades, and all of them started to come online at the same time. We talk about this a lot in the show in context of rent growth, but it bears true here in terms of valuation for multifamily that because there was so much multifamily coming on at the same time, that doesn’t in itself push down values necessarily, but it has caused a lot of vacancy, right?
We have seen vacancy rates across multifamily go up, and higher vacancy means lower NOI, right? Your profit will suffer if you have higher vacancies, or in a lot of cases, you have to lower rents, and that’s gonna hurt your NOI as well, or maybe you just can’t grow rents, you can’t raise your rents in the way that you could in a normal year, or certainly during the pandemic, and so NOIs are compressing. And so rent growth has been slow, vacancy has been going up, and all of that is happening not at a good time. It’s happening at the same time where other expenses like taxes or insurance or maintenance costs are all going up. So NOI is getting squeezed on both sides. We’re seeing lower rents and lower income, higher expenses, that means lower NOI. So if you add these things together, you know, higher debt costs, lower NOI, it’s just not as profitable to own these assets as it was a couple of years ago.
So this is kind of a near perfect storm. It’s not a perfect storm because there are actually some good things going on and we’re gonna get to that. But if you think about it, higher cap rates, lower NOI, tighter lending, all that points to declining values in multifamily, which is exactly what we’ve got. This stuff makes sense when you understand the fundamentals. Now, that’s just multifamily, but a lot of the same challenges exist in other parts of commercial real estate too. Those debt problems and the higher interest rates exist across the board. But the reason that you see self-storage, for example, or retail doing a little bit better is they don’t have the same pressure on NOI as multifamily. The vacancy rates in self-storage and retail haven’t been as high. And so that’s why multifamily has seen bigger declines than those two asset classes. And on the other end of the spectrum, it’s why we’re seeing office get absolutely demolished because their revenue is getting crushed.
They have much higher vacancies. Rent rates are going down significantly in the office spector, so their NOI losses are worse and that’s why valuations in office have fallen the furthest. So generally speaking, this is the backdrop for multifamily over the last couple years and other commercial assets. But when we come back from this quick break, we’ll get into whether or not this is going to change. Could this be the year that multifamily actually bottoms and we start to see opportunity again? We’ll discuss that right after this break.
Welcome back to On The Market. I’m Dave Meyer talking about the outlook for commercial real estate in 2026. Before the break, we talked about some of the backdrop for why things have declined. And now, because we understand sort of the fundamentals that have led us to where we are today, we can examine the case for commercial real estate rebounding in 2026, and we’re gonna look at both the bull and bear cases. On this show, what we like to do is present arguments for both sides because no one really knows, and there are arguments in both directions, and I’m gonna share both of them with you right now, and then I’ll give you my general opinion, how I interpret these arguments and all of this data, and frankly, what I’m going to do about it. So first up, we’re gonna talk about the bullish case for 2026, why things could potentially turn around.
The first argument is basically that the market has corrected and it has stabilized. It’s not like it has been in a continuous free fall. We actually see that most of the declines in multifamily happened from early 2022 to early 2024, and then actually by some measures, we’ve seen modest gains in pricing in multifamily in 2025. If you look at some projections like from Green Street, they’re actually predicting that appreciation will continue in 2026, and this is largely because this exercise of what’s sometimes called price discovery. Basically, when market conditions change, sellers and buyers have to readjust. They have to, you know, sort of feel each other out and figure out what’s a fair price in this new paradigm. Given everything we know about interest rates, NOIs rising expensive, what is a fair price? And so the argument for that things are turning around is that that price discovery exercise has already been done, things are starting to stabilize and maybe we’ve found a bottom where we can start to grow off of.
Argument number two for why things might start to turn around is that capital markets might actually start to thaw. I mentioned earlier that one of the challenges in multifamily of late is that lenders have tightened their underwriting. They have made it harder because they’ve sensed a lot of risk. But as the Fed lowers rates and as the, the tide starts to turn, there is a general sense that capital markets are gonna get a little bit easier. It’s gonna be a little bit easier to get loans, and that means that might bring more demand back into the market, right? Not only could rates come down, but more people will be able to get the loans and qualify for the loans that they need to purchase multifamily. And if that’s true, that should help prices, right? In basic economics, if there are more people who can afford to buy products that leads to more demand, and that puts upward pressure on pricing.
The third argument for why things might have bottomed is just that multifamily supply is coming down, and this pendulum that constantly swings back and forth in terms of multifamily supply might be swinging in the other direction. Remember what I said earlier that during 2020, 2021, developers got super excited about building, they started all of these projects. Those projects didn’t really hit the market until 2024 or 2025, and that’s why in the last two years we’ve seen so much supply, it’s compressed NOI, it’s brought down rents. But starting in 2022, when mortgage rates went up, when lending got harder, development really stopped. This pendulum swung, like, almost all the way in the other direction. And we went from a time where there was a ton of construction to a time where there are really, really low levels of construction. So this is actually something that you can pretty easily forecast because it takes two, three, four years to build a multifamily property.
We actually know with a fair degree of confidence how much new supply is coming on in the market this year, next year, and the year after that, and it’s not a lot. And so if you look at that, there is a good argument to be made that rents are gonna start going back up because if there is a decrease in supply and there’s still housing demand, and by all measurements, we still have a housing shortage in the United States. If that supply goes not just back to normal, but actually swings all the way to being not a lot of supply, that bodes well for rent growth, and that could help NOIs grow in the near future. So there are obviously other cases and arguments to be made, but those are the three big ones that at least I buy into for why multifamily might turn around.
Now, of course, there’s a bearish case too. A lot of people don’t think this is the year that things are gonna turn around, and these are the main arguments. Number one is that the refinancing pressure from adjustable rate mortgages, that hasn’t really gone away, right? We still have a lot of people who bought in 2022, 2023, and the COVID years basically whose interest rates haven’t adjusted yet. Maybe they got a five-year arm in 2021 or 2022. And so we’re gonna still see people have a lot of pressure on themselves, not all operators, but there’s still a good amount of operators who are now gonna see their cashflow significantly compressed, their NOIs come down because their loan adjusts, and that could actually lead to forced selling. And as we talk about in residential, it is true here in commercial too, when there is forced selling, that puts downward pressure on pricing, and that could still remain in 2026.
The second thing is that, yes, I said that supply is going to come back to earth. That’s mostly on a national level. There are still a lot of markets where there is a lot of supply glut that hasn’t been worked out yet. There’s still negative net absorption, basically mean there is more supply coming on than there is demand, and that could suppress the entire industry. And then the third bear case for why multifamily might not rebound is because there’s just still kind of a lot of garbage out there. There’s just not that many quality assets on the market. Not a lot of people who have great, strong performing assets are choosing to sell right now, because if you don’t have to, it’s not the best market to sell into. And so if there’s not good inventory on the market, it’s harder to pull buyers off the sidelines into the market to buy junk, right?
Like if there’s just really bad deals out there, people are gonna, who have been sitting on the sidelines, they’re gonna continue sitting on the sidelines. If however, all of a sudden we see really strong assets and great locations come on, we might pull people off the sideline, but there’s still a lot of junk to work through in terms of inventory, and that’s another reason why 2026 might not be the year to rebound. So when I read these, I think there’s strong arguments on both sides, but when I interpret this stuff, personally, I think in 2026, what we’re gonna see is a recovery, but only in a very specific section of assets. It’s going to be good assets in markets where there is not a lot of supply. The markets where there is still too much supply, I’m thinking places like Denver or Austin or places in the Southeast or any not great assets, I think they’re still going to struggle.
I don’t think this is one of those times or one of the years where just everything gets better. I don’t think there’s gonna be some big tailwind that pushes up valuations across the industry. I think it’s only gonna be in certain markets and for certain asset classes. That’s my take at least on multifamily, and I’ll talk a little bit in just a minute about what to do about that, but I first wanna just talk a little bit about other commercial real estate. I just wanna say other areas of commercial real estate, not my expertise. I do a lot of research on this, but I don’t buy retail, I don’t buy office, and I don’t own any self-storage. So take this all with a grain of salt. This is really more of an academic research. It’s not based on my personal experience that I have in other parts of the market like multifamily and residential.
In retail, the general sense is that it is the most likely commercial real estate asset class to recover. And I know that sounds surprising because you would think retail’s getting crushed right now, but there’s just not the same level of supply in retail that there is in multifamily or in office. And because building costs are so high, financing costs have been so high, development for new retail has been low. That keeps rent growth strong, it keeps occupancy strong, and you might actually see rent growth growing. Analysts are more bullish about retail recovering than really any of the other subsectors of commercial real estate that I’ve seen. In terms of office, man, I, I have a hard time thinking things are going to recover. I do think in a similar vein of multifamily, great assets are gonna continue to go. We’re gonna have this continued sort of fight flight to quality because tenants, right, and office tenants are gonna have a lot of choice, and they’re probably gonna choose prime buildings because they can get great deals on those.
And so you might start to see office recovering, but I think frankly, we don’t know how office space is going to be used in the future. We hear sure a lot of high profile back to office cases, but hybrid work is still very prominent and I think it’s here to stay. And I just don’t think companies see the value investing in high quality office space or huge office footprints as they used to. And so personally, I stay out of office and I think that it is very uncertain if it’s going to recover. So if you’re gonna invest in office, you better know what you’re doing. Self-storage, I think there’s a little bit of optimism here, but it’s gonna, again, be really market dependent forecasts. We actually see in self-storage a lot of the supply issues that we see in multifamily, there has been a lot of building of self-storage.
If you look at Yardi, they’re a big data analytics firm. They actually revise their forecast up for 2025, 2026, and the total number of units delivered. And unless the housing market falls a little bit, I think that’s going to be a challenge because from what I understand, one of the main drivers of self-storage is transaction volume in the housing market. People get self-storage units when they move, and we are at about 4.1 million transactions in the residential housing market this past year. I think it’ll get a little better, but I don’t think it’s going to get much better. And so I’m not sure there’s gonna be a huge uptick in demand for self-storage at a time that we are seeing more supply. That is not to say that certain markets won’t do well, but I think overall as an industry, it’s probably gonna continue to struggle and main a little bit suppressed in 2026.
So overall, when you look across these asset classes, I do think it’s kind of a bottoming out year, right? More than I think, generally speaking, that’s a recovery year. I think we might see sections that see some exciting stuff, but I do think bottoming out in itself is kind of exciting, right? Things have to bottom out before they can turn around. And I get the sense that in 2026 we’ll work through some of the issues. I think 2027 is looking like a great year, but that actually doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t buy right now. And actually, if you look historically at business cycles, it is often this, like, trough period where they are bottoming out, that’s the best time to buy, right? If you wait till things get exciting again, that’s when there’s more demand. That’s when sellers raise their expectations. And if you’re willing to get in now when there’s still some inefficiency in the market, that is often when you can find the best deals.
So we should now turn to what to do about this. What should you actually do about a bottoming out year in 2026? How do you plan for that? We’re gonna get into that right after this quick break.
Welcome back to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer talking about the commercial real estate outlook for 2026. Before the break, we talked about different subsectors and my general belief that we are gonna probably bottom out in 2026, but there’s gonna be good opportunity in specific markets and in specific asset classes. So what do you do about this? How do you, as a real estate investor, plan for this kind of market? I got four tips that I’m gonna go through with you right now. I’m gonna talk mostly about multifamily here, but this is true for other asset classes too. Number one, focus on supply. I talk a lot to real estate investors every single day, and I think that one of the common oversights that people have is they look at demand and they don’t look at supply. I think people say, “Oh, people are moving to this market.
Jobs are going to that market.” That’s great. But if there’s so much supply that they’re, all of those new people are gonna get absorbed and then some, that’s not really good. I think Austin, Texas is probably a perfect example of that. Jobs are going to Austin, people are moving to Austin, but the market there has really suffered both in residential and commercial because there is just too much supply. And so if I were looking in multifamily, and I am, I am looking Looking to buy multifamily this year, I would start my analysis by looking at places where the supply glut has either passed or there never was a supply glut in the first place. This is something you can look up on Yardi or CoStar is a really good source for that. You can actually just find this on Fred too, the Fred website. They show new construction starts, but what you wanna look for specifically, if you wanna get into this, is look for deliveries.
That’s the industry term for how many new units are coming online. You can even just Google, like, how many multifamily deliveries are expected in Atlanta in 2026 and 2027 and do some research there. The higher the number of deliveries in the short term, the higher the risk for that market, because you don’t know if they’re going to get absorbed, that’s probably going to suppress rent growth. If you instead look at a market where there are low numbers of deliveries, especially in areas where there are low numbers of deliveries, but there is high demand, there are people moving there, there are jobs there, but they’re not building a lot. That is a recipe for success and a market that I would personally look at, whether I’m looking at multifamily, in self-storage, office, retail. Look for those supply and demand dynamics. You want an imbalance, right? You want more demand than supply.
And so that’s the number one thing I would look for if I wanted to get into commercial real estate in 2026. Approach number two is to underwrite scared. This is something I talk about all the time, whether you’re in residential or in commercial, but you don’t want to project a lot of rent growth right now. In the last two years, depending on who you ask, rent growth’s been flat or negative. And right now, even if the supply is low in your area, there’s a lot of other things going on in the market that could suppress rent growth. I actually debate this a lot with my friends in real estate. I was talking to Scott Trench about this recently, former CEO of BiggerPockets host of The Money Show. He thinks rent growth is gonna go crazy. Not crazy, but we’re gonna see high rent growth this year, four, 5%, 7%.
I personally don’t. I am a little bit more bearish on rent growth. I get it that supply is gonna work its way through the market, but when I look at things like the labor market with wage growth declining, with the unemployment rate for young people being near 10%, when I look at those things, I think household formation is going to slow. I don’t think we’re gonna see a big uptick in demand for housing. And that might not necessarily mean negative rent growth, but I think it’s going to weigh on rent growth. So if I am underwriting a multifamily deal, I’m not counting on rent growth in 26. I might not even count on rent growth in 2027. Now, if you said, “Dave, what’s your best guess you have to make a prediction?” I do think rent will grow the next two years, but in my underwriting, I’m not gonna do it.
I just think it makes more sense right now to be a little bit more risk averse and to just assume that rent is not going to grow the next couple of years. And again, this is true in multifamily, but I think the same thing applies to self-storage, office retail. I would not count on your revenue increasing in the next two years because that’s just smart. If you can underwrite a deal where rent doesn’t grow and it’s still pencils, that’s a deal you can buy with confidence, but you don’t only wanna buy deals that make sense if things start to grow again, because it’s very uncertain when that will happen and to what degree. Tip number three, and I think people are going to disagree with me on this, and you are welcome to. I’d love to hear your comments in the debate, but I am still worried about adjustable rate mortgages.
Like, I know that the trend right now is to lower mortgage rates. And I am, I have said, I think in the next year, next two years, maybe in the next three years, we’ll see slightly lower borrowing costs than we have over the next couple of years. But in five years, in seven years, I really don’t know. I’ve said before on this show, and I’ll say it again, that I think the long-term outlook for mortgage rates and for the interest rate you’re gonna get on debt is very uncertain. I think there’s a chance five, seven years from now, our interest rates are higher. I’m not gonna get into that in super details, but it has a lot to do with the, the amount of debt that we have in this country, but I just wouldn’t count on rates going on a long downward decline. And so for me, I’m literally doing this.
When I’m looking at multifamily, I am willing personally to pay a higher interest rate to lock in either a longer term arm or fixed rate debt. I would target a seven-year arm, a 10-year arm, or I would pay up for fixed rate debt because that just gives me more confidence. I don’t wanna take a risk right now, given all this uncertainty, but if I can find a great asset that I can lock up with fixed rate debt, it’s gonna be more expensive. Don’t get me wrong, that will be a more expensive loan, but I would be willing, and I would prefer to pay for that more expensive loan. Obviously, the deal still has to pencil, but I would prefer that over adjustable rate mortgage because I wanna reduce my risk in this kind of market. Tip number four is if you’re gonna do value add, it has to be reflected in the PNL soon.
Now, what does that mean? It means that if you’re gonna do a renovation, a lot of people like do renovations to boost the long-term appeal of something. For me, if you are gonna do a value add project, it has to raise your rents. You have to be doing something where you’re gonna say, “I’m gonna renovate this property, and in 18 months, I’m gonna be able to get my rents up to market rate, or I am going to start to cash flow in the next 12 months after I do that. ” I do not think it is the time to buy an asset, invest in it, and say, “You know, we’re gonna get rents up, but it might take three or four years, and we might have vacancies for two years while we do this big project,” which is common in multifamily. Sometimes it takes two years to turn something around, or you wanna do it slowly, not really the time to do that.
I think you need to find deals where you can instantly add value. Now, instantly is probably a not good word because nothing is instant in real estate, but can you add value in six months? Can you add value in 12 months to get that NOI up? That is the name of the game right now. Don’t just do things because it looks pretty. Don’t just do things because you think it will add value when you go and sell it seven years from now. Invest in things that are gonna grow your NOI in the next one to two years, and that can really help the performance of your asset and reduce your overall risk. So those are my four tips. I’m sure there are other ones. If you have tips for people buying commercial real estate, please let us know in the comments. But those are the four things that I’m personally using, and I, I am genuinely looking at this.
I think I probably talked to at least two or three brokers this week. I’m looking for four to 20 units where I could do modest value add that I can get done in six to nine months, ideally, where I can get ideally fixed rate debt, and I can get to stabilization and a positive cash on cash return of six to 8% within 18 months. That’s my buy box, and I’m only really looking for them in markets with low supply. That is the key. I am looking at markets that have strong demand, low vacancy, and a very weak construction pipeline. I don’t wanna see multifamily buildings anywhere in the markets that I’m looking. I wanna know that when I put my new product on the market, that I’m gonna be able to rent them out quickly. Frankly, I don’t want the competition from other development. So that’s my plan for commercial in 2026.
It’s something I’ve, I’ve invested in syndications over the last couple of years that I’ve done well using these t- same types of things, and I’m looking in 2026 for direct ownership opportunities for the same thing to buy these four to 20 units. I’m stealing this from Brian Burke, you’ve probably heard him on this show before, but he convinced me that this is kind of a sweet spot between four and 25 units because institutional investors aren’t really looking at it, and it’s an opportunity for small investors like you and me to get really good assets at good prices. So that’s what I’m doing. But please, let me know in the comments what you are looking at, if you like commercial in 2026, if you’re planning to get into the market, or if you think it’s still better to sit on the sidelines. That’s our show for today.
Thank you all so much for listening. I’m Dave Meyer, and I’ll see you next time.

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Last year, Scott Trench, former BiggerPockets CEO, made a big bet on real estate—selling $1,000,000 in stocks to buy rentals instead. A year later, he’s on the show, and we’ve got one crucial question to ask him.

The man behind the mustache (yes, he’s still got it!) is joining us today to give a life update and share how his huge financial decision played out. But a lot has changed in the past year, markets aside. Scott stepped down as BiggerPockets CEO and is now fully dedicated to BiggerPockets Money, helping as many people as possible find their own version of financial freedom.

We’ll go over his $1,000,000 stock sell-off, how his investments have been performing since then, his 2026 outlook, and why he believes many investors will be proven wrong about the housing market and real estate investments. Scott believes the next three years will be an “absorption” phase for real estate, but what does that mean for your property values, rent prices, and cash flow?

And don’t worry, Scott also shares what he’s been doing since stepping away from 100-hour weeks as BiggerPockets CEO.

Dave:
Should you invest in real estate or pour your money into the stock market? It’s a question you’re probably asking yourself right now as you create your financial plans for the year and work on building wealth. So today we’re digging into it. Should you put a down payment on that local property or buy more into the S&P 500? Hey everyone. I’m Dave Meyer. Welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast. Today’s episode is a follow-up to one of our most popular shows from a year ago. We’ve got former BiggerPockets CEO, Scott Trench. A year ago on this show, he proclaimed himself a big bear on the stock market and he announced he was selling $1 million from his stock portfolio to reposition that capital into real estate in Denver. Now, a year later, S&P is up. It’s up 15% from that conversation and Scott is back. And I’ll get an update on his life since stepping away as CEO of BiggerPockets, his recent work hosting the BiggerPockets Money Podcast.
And then I’ll ask him if he has any regrets about that big financial decision he made last year. But more importantly, I’m also going to get his take on the markets, stock and real estate and more for the rest of 2026. I want to find out, is Scott doubling down on real estate and continuing to sell off equities? Or maybe he’s changed his outlook and he’s back to stockpiling ETFs for the next 12 months. And I’m curious what he recommends for other investors striving towards the same level of financial freedom that he’s achieved himself. So let’s find out. Scott Trench, welcome back to the BiggerPockets Podcast. It’s so good to see you. Thanks for being here. Good to see you as well, Dave. It’s been a while and I’m sure the audience is eager to hear. For those of you who don’t know, Scott graduated successfully, financially free now and stepped away as BiggerPockets CEO a couple months ago.
So tell us what you’ve been up to.

Scott:
Yeah. I’ve been doing a lot of lifting weights, a lot of hiking. I got a ski pass for the first time since 2017.

Dave:
Dude, that is way too long living in Colorado.

Scott:
Yeah. But this year the goal is to go 10 times. So I got a ski trip planned for two week, three weeks from now. And yeah, just been hanging out enjoying life and been doing the BiggerPockets Money podcast and having a blast doing that. It’s been really fun.

Dave:
Nice. What’s been going on over at Money? What are you guys focusing on these days?

Scott:
Yeah, basically the goal is to build a DIY financial planning toolkit. So I think it’s very frustrating that you can’t even find a basic spreadsheet to put in your financial position if you are a somewhat sophisticated investor with some kind of complexity. So just like creating, here’s a basic personal financial statement, here’s a goal setting template, here’s some calculators that can help you make very basic decisions around there.

Dave:
Oh, cool.

Scott:
And eventually what I’d like to do is I’d like to put out about 25 different financial plans for fake people that others might find familiar. Oh, I’m a real estate investor with a complex portfolio. I’m a broke at 50 trying to catch up to retirement and just kind of like, oh, you should do something different in this situation than over here and provide those kind of templates so people can make their own plans and maybe bring them to an advisor.

Dave:
I’d love to see them. I absolutely understand this pain point. It is very difficult to find these things. I am pretty good at this stuff and I’ve struggled even to make my own financial planning stuff in Excel because it really, especially when you’re in real estate, it is difficult to build that into a traditional retirement plan, figure out where you want to allocate resources. So please send them my way once they are done and we’ll share them with the audience, of course. But we are here today because I want to understand, I always enjoy sort of just talking to you and about the market and what you’re doing and strategy. I think this is something you’ve always been great at and it’s fun to talk to you about. So we’re going to get to that. We’re going to hear about Scott’s 2026 predictions approach to investing, but we got to hold you accountable to your 2025 goals because you were here a year ago doing this.
So let’s go through your 2025 predictions.

Scott:
Well, just to kind of start the conversation here, one of the reasons I’ve gotten into vibe coding is because I’m awful at the prediction. So this was a disaster from a prediction standpoint. So last year I put together a deck call, I get irrational exuberance 3.0. And I’m like, the stock market, the S&P 500 in particular is at all time highs or close to all time highs from a Cape or Schiller PE ratio. That’s crazy. I don’t understand that. I’m not taking a part in that. I was like, “Gold is urged recently. I don’t understand Bitcoin. I’m not taking a part of that. Bonds are too low. Where do you go for all this stuff?” And so my move at that time was to sell portions of my stock portfolio and move it into paid off real estate because I’m like, “I can get a six, 7% cap rate deal here in Denver all cash right now and go with that.
” And so that’s what I did. I ended up selling a million dollars of S&P 500 and putting that into a quadplex. I actually sold a little bit more than that and I bought another duplex a few months later. And so that quadplex, I underwrote to a six and a half percent cap rate and I just did my taxes and annualized, it was almost exactly that, like 6.42% with property management. So I got what I was looking for with that quadplex. The duplex has some work, so I’m finishing up stabilizing that. There’s a tenant in place and so I began to work three or four months post close. So we’ll have to come back next year to see what that cap rate ends up being, but it should be higher. That was what I did with those funds. And so I got my cap rate and depending on how what you want to assume for appreciation on an illiquid asset, some appreciation there.
And then I missed out on like the 12% growth from February when I sold to the end of the year or recording this in the early January of the S&P 500 plus whatever yield came from it. So that’s like a $100,000 loss on those moves compared to what I would have gotten if I just stayed in the S&P 500 over the course of the year. Now, who knows what the S&P of 500 will do this year. Maybe it goes up even more and that move looks even worse. Maybe it immediately crashes
Or doesn’t go anywhere for a while and that ends up. So time will tell how that ends up looking, but from year one perspective doesn’t look so good on that front.

Dave:
Well, I love the honesty, but it’s like you’re still up. You’re just perhaps up on paper as of today less than it would be. We’ll see. No one knows. But I’m curious, just like from a philosophical perspective, is that something you regret or beat yourself up on? Or how do you think about that kind of decision?

Scott:
No. The first property every single month, every single month I’m able to transfer five and a half, 6,000 bucks. Some months is a little less when I have like property taxes or insurance and there’s a reserve in there for CapEx, but I’m able to just transfer that and I spend it. Yeah,

Dave:
It’s great. Pays

Scott:
For my life. Second one, again, for the first three or four months it did, and I knew I had this project in there that was all factored into my underwriting. So once I get that stabilized, that should do the same a little bit lower, like four and a half to 5,000 on that. And that just feels great between those two properties alone, not to mention the rest of my rental portfolio and the still half of my net worth that is in the stock market in investments that are either the S&P 500 directly or in other stock market ownership.

Dave:
Yeah. I think that’s the right way to look at it because it’s obviously, it can be easy and somewhat tempting to say, “Oh, I should have done this. I should have done that. ” But I made a similar decision. I did not sell nearly as much stock, but I sold some stock at the beginning of last year too, just because I felt like there was risk. And I didn’t necessarily think the stock market was going to crash, but I think the probability of the crash is going up and I’d rather just take risk off the board. And the way I think about that is I’m willing to give up some potential gains to take risk off the board. And sometimes that works out where, yeah, you don’t realize as many gains as you would have in the stock market. But like a year ago, who knew which way the wind was going to blow?
And I think it’s a totally rational decision to try and hedge your risk and real estate, I think just more of a sure thing, at least in the last year or so. And I would argue going into this year as well.

Scott:
Yeah. I felt and feel way better about it in terms of like, I’m spending that money, right?That’s the difference. If I was saying, “Oh, I’m going to wait 30 years and just accumulate,” then maybe that’s different. But I’m actually spending the cash flows generated by this rental property to fund my lifestyle. That’s a major improvement for me in this particular situation, although it clearly has cost me somewhere approaching six figures-ish.

Dave:
But again, we’ll see. I guess that’s a good transition to what we’re looking forward to in 2026. How are you feeling about the stock market this year?

Scott:
One of the things that this year I’m going to, with my humble pie in, and I’m not going to be using words like irrational exuberance 3.0 or anything like that. And I’m not even going to pretend or have any input at all on any asset class outside of real estate. I feel like my real estate takes over the years have been generally fairly close. I’ve never been wildly crazy in the wrong direction on those in my time at BiggerPockets. So I feel comfortable talking about that, but I have no idea what the hell’s going to happen with Bitcoin.
I don’t understand gold and all this stuff, dedolarization, like if that’s going to continue or just revert wildly. I think I could flip a coin and come up with something on those items there. The S&P 500, the same stuff I was talking about last year continues to scare me and there it’s like, hey, it’s trading, it’s like at a 40 times Cape ratio. Some people don’t like Cape. It’s at the highest ever price to sales ratio in history. It’s trading at a highly elevated price to forward earnings in there, very high trailing earnings. One thing that I’ve been noodling on is AI spend, AI CapEx alone is like 400, 430 billion is where I think it’s going to shake out in 2025, and it’s going to be 600 billion next year. And what’s interesting about that is, I’m sure you notice this, but I use AO all the time now.
Of course. I’m switching between these vibe coding apps all the time. It’s free or very low cost each time I use it. And every three months, the model I’m using is made obsolete by the next one developed by some competitor. And so I’m like, what’s interesting about that is as I believe that the bulk of that is capitalized by these companies. So it’s not showing up in your price to earnings report when you look at global S&P 500 price to earnings for a trailing basis,
But it’s spend. It’s not capital expenditure. It’s spend because of how rapidly it becomes obsolete, in my view. So I think that’s like even like another thing on there that I’m like, okay, I’m interested in. But at the same time, it truly is making things more productive. It’s truly making life easier and faster and making everything easier for me as an individual. So surely that’s going to show up on the scoreboard somewhere in profits or earnings or revenue or individual income somewhere in the world that’s going to show up on the scoreboard, making the world a better place or people more productive at least.
But it’s just like, is that all going to translate to corporate profits for these, the Mag seven or the FANGs? I don’t know how that’ll play out. So I only have questions this year and I’m like, I’m sitting very comfortable with my diversified, safe, boring portfolio, large cash position of like two and a half years of spending and my paid off rentals. And I’ll probably miss out on something, but I just have no idea where it’s going to be, where that next piece is going to come from. And I think that there’s still plenty of risk on the table. So that’s my take this year. And next year we can count the next 200,000 that I miss out on this particular move.

Dave:
I’m sort of in a similar head space as you that’s like, I’m at a point in my career luckily where I don’t need to maximize profits. And part of me just wants to just kind of like protect what I got and keep going slow and steady. So I’d love to actually talk to you more about portfolio allocation, Scott, because this is a super important and tricky question for our audience, but we got to take a quick break. We’ll get to that right after this. Running your real estate business doesn’t have to feel like juggling five different tools. With ReSimply, you can pull motivated seller lists, skip chase them instantly for free, and reach out with calls or texts all from one streamlined platform. But the real magic is AI agents that answer inbound calls, follow up with prospects, and they even grade your conversations so you know where you stand.
And that means less time and busy work and more time closing deals. Start your free trial and lock in 50% off your first month at resimply.com/biggerpockets. That’s R-E-S-I-M-P-L-I.com/biggerpockets. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets Podcast. I’m here with Scott Trench talking about his takes on 2026. We talked a little bit about 2025. Scott, you sort of hit on, we’ve sort of been circling around this idea of like portfolio allocation, how much money you put where. And this is a tough question for people. You alluded to this when you’re talking about sort of financial planning. How do you think about allocating capital and maybe you’re willing to share some of how your portfolio is allocated, at least in percentage points right now?

Scott:
Sure. I mean, my portfolio is very straightforward. About 40 to 45% is in real estate equity here in Denver, Colorado in multifamily properties that I own and I have a property manager, but could operate here. And that’s what I know. I’m kind of like digging my heels in for a slog on that front for a little bit, but it’s with a low leverage, I’m generating pretty good cash flow from that. Almost entirely alone funds my lifestyle. And then the other 55% of my wealth is spread across various retirement accounts, free tax retirement accounts like my 401ks or equivalents, post-tax like the Roth, my HSAs, my after tax brokerage accounts, and that position includes a two and a half year cash reserve and then is allocated into fairly aggressive stock investments. Generally speaking, my new investments, the new cash that I put into it when I do have cash inflows is tending to go into value stocks right now, particularly I like these relatively low fee, actively managed value funds from Avantus, both domestic, international, and emerging market.

Dave:
Why such a big cash position?

Scott:
So several reasons. One is I have a real estate investor. Two is I’m no longer the CEO of a big company, so I don’t have this large income coming in. And then third, I wrote a book called Set for Life, and I think it would be particularly embarrassing to go bankrupt after having authored touch a book. So I keep a particularly large cash position, even if it is a drag in my overall portfolio returns.

Dave:
See, people don’t talk about the unexpected, the hidden consequences of being an author or a public personality. You have to hedge against going bankrupt for … Everyone needs to, but you need to do it a little bit more. It’s pretty funny. All right. Well, cool. Thank you for sharing that because I think sometimes I talk to real estate investors on this show, like Henry, James Dainer, people you know as well. They’re 100% in real estate and you clearly believe in real estate. So why so much in the stock market then?

Scott:
Well, I’m 35, but I won. I’m very lucky. I got what I wanted out of my financial portfolio. I do what I want with my day at this point. And so I just want to maintain that position on an indefinite basis and be able to harvest my portfolio. I’m a little bit even more conservative probably than this like 3.5, 3.75% safe withdrawal rate for my portfolio. So it’s that diversification across these different stock portfolios to make sure that the growth is there long term to sustain that position.

Dave:
Well, good for you and congratulations. It’s an incredible place to be being able to say that you’ve won at 35, I think is the dream for pretty much everyone. So let’s turn our attention to real estate because obviously we all want to hear your take on real estate right now. You alluded to a slog. So what are you seeing in the market right now?

Scott:
For real estate, I’m going to just dive in there. And I think that the word I’m going to use to describe what’s going to take place over the next three years is absorption.That’s
It. That’s the theme I’ve got here. And I think that that is really going to be the main driver of what happens in the real estate market across the nation. Now, every region’s different, but I think in most regions around the country, on average, you saw rents not go up very much, maybe decline a little bit. And that’s really a problem for real estate investors who are really betting on inflation implicitly on housing costs as part of the core thesis behind the investment. And the reason you didn’t see that, we’ve talked about this for years, is the onslaught of multifamily supply. We’re specifically talking about the residential market right now and the historic deliveries in 2024 and in the first half of 2025. So we’ve talked about that for years and those abated in the second half of 2025 and now heading into 2026, we’re going to see relatively low net new deliveries of multifamily across the nation.
And what’s going to happen, I think in 2026 is that vacancy rate is just going to come creeping down. It’s going to come down maybe 200, 300 basis points in some of these markets like a Denver. And what that’s going to do is that’s going to drive rent growth. Two years ago, I would’ve send rent growth was going to be very high in Denver in 2026. And the reason I’m going to say it’s going to be more muted absorption this year is because the demand side of the equation has changed in a lot of these places with a lot less movement. And I think a big part of that is the huge change in immigration policy in this country. For sure. And for the record, I think it’s a good thing to have the border under control in there. We won’t get into more politics than that, but just that alone is stopping several hundred thousand net new illegal immigrant arrivals on a monthly basis.
On top of that, you have deportations. I really don’t know what source to believe on deportation data at this point. I think it’s actually wild how hard it is to get believable data on that point. And these are either voluntary or involuntary,
But no matter how you slice it, you’re getting close to about half a percent or maybe even a little bit more than that in terms of population differences nationally versus what you would’ve forecast two years ago if you just expected those numbers to continue.
So there’s other forces that play with that, but I think that alone is actually going to have a fairly reasonable impact on and slowing absorption rates over what you might have otherwise thought was going to happen into, at this point, your overall vacancy and it’s going to compound each year. And so I think you’re going to see that rent growth that I thought was going to be really high in 2026, 2027, and 2028, two years ago. I think you’re going to see it much more muted. I think you’re going to see something in the three to 4% range for rent growth in 2026,

Speaker 3:
And then

Scott:
You’re going to see something a little bit higher than that in 2027 and higher yet again in 2028. So it’s still going to be strong rent growth, but it’s not going to be … I was putting up some big forecast numbers. I thought we were going to be bumping double digits in 2027 for rent growth, at least in some markets. And I think that that number needs to be tempered now because the demand side is just a little lower. Rent growth is common, but it’s not going to be the party that in rent growth that I think landlords were thinking was going to happen two or three years ago based on this delivery curve on the supply side.

Dave:
I’m a little more pessimistic than you are, to be honest. Like on a national basis, I think it’s going to stay close to flat, maybe one to 2%.

Scott:
No way. No, no, because you’re going to see net absorption.

Dave:
I’m just worried about household formation. I just think the demand side, maybe I’m too pessimistic, but I worry about how stretched people are. The rent burden numbers are really high. The wage growth numbers are starting to come down. The unemployment rate for young people is really high. So obviously it’ll be market to market, but on a national basis, I think if I had to bet, I’d say it’s between zero and two, not up to four, but we’ll come back next year, hold us to this.

Scott:
I’ll go a little bit more optimistic than that. I’d say it’s going to be in the three to four range, 3.0% to 4.5%, somewhere in that range.

Dave:
Well, I started around BPCon last year calling this era that we’re in the great stall. It just feels like everything is stuck and prices are kind of flat, rent’s kind of flat. What do you think this means, one, for prices and then perhaps more importantly, strategically for our audience, what do you do about this?

Scott:
I don’t know. From a pricing, pricing is so difficult for me because I look at the Denver total pricing and I would’ve said, “There’s no way I’m not coming on this podcast here in January 2025, not under contract of my next rental property, just deploying another round of that liquidity that I have. ” And I look around the market in the last three months, two months, and I don’t see very many deals to buy compared to what I saw in June and January, February last year. This is small multifamily in Denver, so it’s a subsector of that. But I’m like, why is it actually harder for me to buy an unlevered property right now at a great deal or price point than it was this time last year? I would’ve expected either that rent growth to start propelling and that’s why I’m finding that challenge or I’d expected the prices to continue going down and I’m buying that whole curve down a pricing perspective.
So that didn’t happen either from a pricing perspective. I’m not seeing the prices go down. I’m just seeing stuff not really sell. A lot of people put something on the market and then take it down. But I think that’s the real problem here is nobody really needs to sell
And that may not be the case for a long time.

Dave:
Well, especially in residential, right, because people have fixed rate debt, so they’re just going to hold on.

Scott:
Yeah. And a third of properties are owned free and clear or some crazy number like that. It’s like 40.

Dave:
Yeah, it’s crazy. Yeah. But I guess the only forcing function could be if rents keep not going up, but taxes are going up, insurances are going up, maintenance and repairs. So your margins could get compressed even though things are kind of stable from a price perspective. And so that might be an impetus for some people to sell.

Scott:
Yeah. There should be, in theory, reasons to sell. People move, people get divorced, people die, people get sick, people have problems at their properties or whatever, but I mean, it just doesn’t seem to be happening yet. So I think that’s going to be a challenge here. I don’t really know what to make of it.

Dave:
So you’re actively looking, it sounds like, but just not finding the right deals.

Scott:
Yes.

Dave:
And to you, a good deal, you’re buying for cash, so you’re looking for a six and a half percent cap rate. I mean, it’s a good cap rate in Denver, but is that sort of your buy box?

Scott:
Last year, my moves were really made because I’m leaving my position here, I need income or I want more income to make sure that I feel really good about defending my day-to-day lifestyle. Now it’s more like, okay, I’m actually chasing yield if I do this and I’m just not finding the opportunity that I would’ve guessed would be here at this point.

Dave:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I still look at the Dever market. I’m willing to buy. I haven’t bought something in Denver since 2018, and it doesn’t look that good to me, to be honest, but other parts of the country, I do feel like we’re getting more inventory. When I look at properties in the Midwest, it’s starting to open up for the first time in two or three years. I was looking at properties in the Northeast and the Southeast. It really, I think, is just market to market specific, which is how real estate is supposed to be. But it makes it kind of hard, especially for newer investors. What do you recommend to people? Do you wait? Do you just set a strict buy box and be patient? What’s your advice?

Scott:
I think that the core challenge right now for folks that are not buying all cash is negative leverage, right? And so when you’re buying even a six cap using six and a half percent debt fixed for 30 years, that’s a pretty all in bet on appreciation and on rent growth. And so I think that’s the challenge is you really have got to wait. You’ve really got to hunt for those deals that don’t have that negative leverage if you’re going to use that or you got to force value. The opportunities are probably still there for very creative and very ambitious. And folks who are willing to rent by the room, do short-term rental work or live in that property where they’re sharing with roommates or find that assumable mortgage. But I think you got to have a really great deal, great financing, or one of these other cashflow strategies to really get the same advantage, the relative advantage out of house hacking that I got with a simple duplex purchase.

Dave:
Yeah. There was a time for most of the 2010s where if someone asked me where to get started, I just say house hacking, no doubt, no questions asked. But there’s some limitations to it now, especially in really expensive markets, Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, renting is better. Even house hacking, I think you and I collaborated on a house hacking calculator once and are buying and renting and stuff. And I’ve put it in and renting is cheaper in a lot of places. I would, for certain people, recommend renting and making sure you still invest that money into something like either in an index fund or into a cashflowing rental somewhere else. But yeah, I don’t think it is as simple as it used to be, but in a lot of less expensive markets, it does, I think still makes sense. It might not be as good, but as I’ve talked about a lot on the show, I think trying to compare your returns now to 2014 doesn’t really make sense.
What makes sense is, is this the best use of my time and money today? And for some people, that is still true. But again, in those expensive markets, that might not be true anymore.

Scott:
Yeah. This brings us in a circle, wonderful circle to two things. So you say renting is better and they’re not building new housing. So is rent going to really go down? That’s like core to that thesis of rent should grow over the next three years in particular. And then the second thing, I think the other question I think that someone I’d be asking myself is, “Man, I believe in index fund investing. I believe in buying US stocks and holding on for the long term.” And I also believe that price does matter at some point and price in terms of stocks is not just the absolute price or whether it’s an all- time high, who cares if it’s an all- time high. It’s the ratio, the amount of income you’re buying per dollar that you invest. And right now you’re paying as much as you’ve ever paid for that in US history other than a point in time around 1999 or 2000.
And that’s, I think the other challenge to this is what are your alternatives in terms of building wealth? And I think that that’s what’s confusing me and you, it sounds like last year, and worries me to a certain degree and maybe worries other people who listen to this. I think that’s the challenge investors have to figure out. For me, the answer has been diversification, and that’s maybe sleep better at night, but it certainly didn’t put more points on the board in 2025.

Dave:
I think diversification is the only way to go in this kind of economy. No one knows. It is as hard to predict or to guess what’s going to happen probably as it’s ever been. Maybe people always said that, but it does feel that way that a lot of the rules are different now or there’s a lot of variables we haven’t had to contend with in the past. And so it just feels super confusing. So I get it. But I find myself gravitating, I’ve always gravitated towards real estate, but when I think about what I’m doing in 2026, it just feels less volatile to me. If I can find a good deal, I feel pretty good about buying that and that it’s going to be good. Finding a deal is hard, but I don’t have the same level of nervousness about it that I do with the stock market where I’m like, it’s totally out of my control.
There are forces of AI that I really don’t understand, but real estate, it’s like finding a deal is harder than it used to be. But when you find one, I feel pretty good that I can operate that and that my performance is going to be what I expect it to be. Sounds like you hit yours on the head as well. And that’s sort of what gives me comfort about real estate in this kind of a climate.

Scott:
Yeah. So I mean, again, I sleep better at night with it, but I’m not putting more points on the board. So I don’t know what that looks like. I think that this year it’s kind of like you’re irrationally confused maybe is the- Or

Dave:
Rationally confused. Maybe it is rational just to be

Scott:
Confused right now. But yeah, I’m not confident there’s going to be very large price changes on a national basis for housing in this country and in terms of the asset value.

Dave:
I agree.

Scott:
I do believe I’m a little bit more bullish on rent growth than you because of the very low supply that we’re expecting

Speaker 3:
In

Scott:
2026. Six, interest rates are anybody’s guess. So on the supply side, low, demand side, still low, but not as low as the supply side. I think you’re going to see rent growth. And then I think interest rates are the wild card. Maybe a new Fed share comes in and lowers rates or maybe they lower rates and we still can’t lower interest rates because other things increase treasury yields for various reasons. So I don’t know what’s going to happen on that front. And then I think that the stock market, it sounds like price to earnings and price to sales and none of those things matter anymore because AI is just going to come in and blow things up so far and so high that none of the old rules matter and it just goes to the moon on stocks.

Dave:
Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you, Scott, for being here. It’s always fun catching up with you. Congrats on the family and everything seems to be going well. And we’d love to see all the progress that you’re making over at Money when you’re ready to share it

Scott:
With us. Yeah, absolutely. Just go over there anytime at biggerpocketsmoney.com and check it out. And Dave, congratulations on another great year with BiggerPockets and more booming business for you in your real estate portfolio.

Dave:
Well, thank you. Thank you. And we’ll definitely have you back on soon, Scott. Thanks for being here. Yeah,

Scott:
Let’s talk about how wrong I am with that rent forecast.

Dave:
Yeah, we’ll see which one is right. Or we might both be totally wrong. Well, thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets Podcast. I’m Dave Meyer. He’ Scott Trench. We’ll see you next time.

 

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Can’t break into real estate investing? Maybe you don’t have enough money to buy a rental property or the track record of a confident investor. Thankfully, there’s a way to make money in real estate without owning rentals, and it could even help fund your first property. Today’s expert makes $20,000 in monthly cash flow with this strategy—Airbnb co-hosting!

Welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie podcast! Today, we’re joined by one of BiggerPockets’ resident short-term rental experts, Garrett Brown. Garrett has owned everything from normal long-term rentals to unique stays in hot vacation markets, but one of his favorite investing” strategies doesn’t even require you to own rental properties. The best part? With some research, people skills, and passion for hospitality, any rookie can build a profitable co-hosting business from scratch in just a few months!

Garrett shows you exactly how to do just that in today’s episode, step by step. You’ll learn where to find clients, what to charge for your services, and how to make your fledgling business stand out in 2026. Garrett even shares his go-to tools and software that make co-hosting a breeze!

Ashley:
We all want to make money, and today we have another real estate related revenue opportunity for rookie investors that doesn’t involve buying a property.

Tony:
Today, we’re bringing on the host of the BiggerPockets Bigger Stays YouTube channel to break down the lucrative world of Airbnb co-hosting. Garrett Brown is going to walk us through his step-by-step blueprint of how you can start up a co-hosting business and how to be successful.

Ashley:
This is The Real Estate Rookie Podcast. I’m Ashley Kehr.

Tony:
And I’m Tony J. Robinson.

Ashley:
Before we welcome Garrett, I wanted to share today’s sponsor and one of the tools I use for my own real estate investing. They say real estate is passive income, but if you spend a Sunday night buried in spreadsheets, you know better. We hear it from investors all the time, spending hours every month sorting through receipts and bank transactions, trying to guess if you’re making any money. And when tax season hits, it’s like trying to solve a Rubik’s cube blindfolded. That’s where Baseline comes in, BiggerPockets official banking platform. It takes every rent payment and expense to the right property and a Schedule E category as you bank. So you get tax-ready financial reports in real time, not at the end of the year. You can instantly see how each unit is performing when you’re making money and losing money and make changes while it still counts.
Head over to baselane.com/biggerpockets to start protecting your profits and get a special $100 bonus when you sign up.

Tony:
Well, Garrett, welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast, man. Thanks for jumping on to join us today.

Garrett:
Always happy to jump on and talk anything real estate related that we can talk about.

Tony:
Garrett, we’re here today to talk about co-hosting. And I think before we get too deep into the weeds, for all of our Rickies who may not be familiar with the phrase co-hosting, can you just define it for us? What does it mean to co-host as an Airbnb?

Garrett:
Sure. So Airbnb kind of popularized and coined the phrase co-host, but it’s essentially you’re doing property management for a short-term rental. And you got to be a little careful with the term property management because reason Airbnb developed the co-host term is because a lot of states have legalities around being a property manager. I’m doing air quotes here, how you can collect money and there may be a license involved. But Airbnb has kind of changed it to where you don’t necessarily retain the money from an owner. You only get your percentage cut that you get from the management side. So they’ve kind of circumvented some of these legalities. And I’m sure a lawyer probably could explain those things better, but basically you’re just helping out an owner with their property and most likely getting a percentage cut of the rental revenue that’s coming in.

Tony:
And I think there’s a bit of a sliding scale here as well because I think when I think about a traditional long-term property manager, and Ashley can check me if I’m wrong here, most of them probably all do the same thing. They kind of full cycle everything from lease up to tenant issues, turnover, whatever it may be. But in the short-term rental space, there’s some co-hosts who only deal with guest messaging and they’re just in there to help you respond to guests and do all those other things. But everything else, your pricing, the maintenance and consumables, you’ve got to handle yourself. And then on the other end of that spectrum, there’s the full service option where they do everything. Not only are they communicating with the guests, but they’re taking those maintenance requests. They’re going out and finding the vendors, they’re doing everything, they’re managing your pricing, they’re keeping it stocked.
So there’s a bit of a spectrum there, Garrett. So for you, where within that spectrum when you talk about co-hosting, do you actually fall?

Garrett:
I only do full service. It’s from a perspective of … I’ve seen people try just messaging and some things like that, and they’ll do lower percentages. But what I see is that it doesn’t really make a functional relationship between the owner and the co-host. And so I personally only do full service management where we handle everything top to bottom for these owners. We also get paid a lot more on the percentage. Ours typically is 20 to 25% and we’ll dive into the full numbers of it and how we set it up. But usually the messaging or more hands-off co-hosting is probably between five to 15% tops. And those particularly didn’t align well with the business model and my own real estate investing journey that I’ve kind of been on. So we do full service.

Ashley:
Well, it has to be kind of hard to do your job if you’re relying on the owner to do a certain part of it. And I’m not doing that. And I say that as an owner myself, that I probably would have to be nagged to get stuff done so they could actually perform their job. But Garrett, I’m curious as to what came first, the chicken or the egg. Did you become a short-term rental investor first, then a co-host, or did you start co-hosting first?

Garrett:
I was a short-term rental investor first myself. I owned the units. I started off with three units back in 2019. I was managing them myself. I learned a lot and I ended up selling those units and getting into bigger, more profitable units once I learned some things, which I still was about three units that I was managing myself. I think that anybody that wants to get into this space is going to need to at least have some experience. And you don’t necessarily have to be a full-fledged investor, even though this is bigger pockets and we always are talking and trying to educate that real estate investments are where the wealth is built and even on the short-term rental side. But if I didn’t own properties, I would’ve gone and worked under another co-host or a property management company or vacation rental property management company is a better way to put it, to just get some experience and learn the ins and outs because there’s a lot of things you don’t know.
And it’s also a lot harder to get co-hosting clients if you have zero experience. Still possible, still a ton of people that do it, but I always recommend to at least get your feet wet in the game the best way you can to make sure it’s even something you like and will develop the skillset that is kind of needed. But I will caveat that saying that I know plenty of people that didn’t have any experience were able to hustle and get their first client and they’ve grown to 30, 40 units and are very successful. So there’s a little bit here and there that happens, but I would suggest you at least have some experience before you start going pitching co-hosting primarily is my advice.

Ashley:
At any point during your journey, did you use a co-host at all or have you always self-managed?

Garrett:
I have always self-managed. And anybody even watching this, I always will preach to people to try self-managing. I went to school for hotel management. I actually, there’s a degree for that. People are always shocked, but there actually is a hospitality degree and I went to college for that. So I’ve knew a lot of the ins and outs. I’ve worked in hotels. So I came from the mindset that I never was going to need a co-host, but anybody that is considering hiring one, if you’re listening on that side, I would do your own self-management for a couple months or whatever to give it a try so that way you know exactly what a good co-host is doing. I see too many people buy a property, they hire a property management company or a co-host or whatever you want to call it, and then they’re like, okay, cool, we’ll just run it.
And they don’t have any idea if they’re even good. They don’t know the ins and outs. They don’t know how they’re managing the guests. Is that the proper way to probably do it? So you learn a lot when you self-manage, but I’ve seen a lot of people self-manage, decide that they hate it, and then that’s when they hire a co-host. And I think that is the best recipe for success to know that if you’re hiring somebody that’s actually qualified and is going to make your life easier, which is what the point of a co-host is.

Ashley:
Tony, you only self-managed your properties. You’ve never used a co-host or a company, have you?

Tony:
Actually, the very, very first short rental that we bought when we purchased it, actually I think it was the second short-term rental that we bought, the current owners had a property manager on it. No, actually it was our first one too. I think it was maybe the first part too. Anyway.

Ashley:
Actually, that one I went and stayed with you at.

Tony:
Yeah, I think that was one of them.

Ashley:
And Smokey Mountains, that one had to have the property manager for a little while too. Yeah.

Tony:
Exactly. Yeah. So when you’re buying from an existing owner that already has a property manager in place, a lot of times they’ll say like, “Hey, we’ve got reservations that extend past your close of escrow. Is it okay if we continue to manage those reservations so we don’t have to cancel? We’ll still take our management fee and then we’ll give you whatever’s the net profit.” So we’ve actually done that a couple of times, but it was always like a very short time period, 30-ish days after closing for them to kind of wrap things up and then we always took it over ourselves. So Garrett, I’m curious, man, co-hosting, I think the benefit is that aside, if you compare it to buying real estate, you don’t have to worry about a down payment, you don’t have to worry about paying to furnish or add amenities. You don’t have to worry about anything really financial, right?
But maybe it’s not the right fit for everyone. So I guess what questions should someone ask themselves before they even think about jumping into the world of Airbnb co-hosting?

Garrett:
So I definitely think that co-hosting mixed with buying some of your own short-term rental properties or properties in general is a true way to balance your own, the issue of not having enough funds to get your next place, but also getting the cash flow that you need in place. So if you have never managed, and this is why I’m so adamant about at least maybe trying to work under a company to know if it’s something you like. Short-term rentals is nothing but real estate investing mixed with the hospitality business. And people always underestimate the hospitality business side. I kind of think short-term rentals are like a gateway drug to either going buy more real estate investing or go and buy your own business or something along those lines because it’s kind of like a happy marriage of both. So if you’ve never done it and you don’t have any hospitality experience, I would 100% try to work under someone and decide if this is for you.
There’s so many softwares and automations now that it has become so much easier in the past few years to manage your properties and not be stuck texting guests all day and doing things. But short-term rentals are never going to be fully passive. If it is, then you have probably the best co-host that’s ever existed and they probably need a raise because there’s always going to, even as an owner, you’re still going to always have to step in and make some decisions and help the co-hosts with some things. So I would just try your best to get experience either managing your own property, working under someone, or like if you have a family member that happens to have a lakehouse, like do some studying, go to the BiggerStays YouTube channel, reach out to me, I can help you through some things and try to give it a shot that way.
And there’s tons of things we can talk about of how to set up your systems, but some of the time trial by fire is the best way to know if you’re going to learn it. But if you hate fixing things, hate having customer or guest interactions, and this may not be the business for you because there’s still going to be a level of hospitality that you have to implement in your business.

Tony:
Garrett, one of my biggest hesitations around jumping into co-hosting personally is the idea that now as a co-host, not only am I kind of focused on and beholden to guest satisfaction, but now on the other end of that spectrum, I also have this owner that I’m beholden to and I have to worry about them being satisfied. Is that a concern for you? How do you kind of navigate that balance of keeping your guests happy, but also having to answer to an owner?

Garrett:
Yeah. And that is easily one of … Even within my team, we kind of joke all day of how much we love owning units because it’s like we only deal with the guests. But when you co-host, you are serving the guest and the owner. My biggest thing that I’ve learned, I’ve taken on … When I first started co-hosting, I probably said yes to way more than I needed to. Any property that was coming to me, Airbnb has the co-host network now where you can put yourself on there to be a potential co-host within, I think, 60 miles of your area that you’re working in. And I used to say yes to almost everybody that came along. And then I eventually realized that not every property makes sense to have a co-host. If they’re going to make $30,000 in the year, it’s probably not worth anybody’s time for you to be the manager of it and dealing with what the money you’re going to make probably $2,000 that year, unless you live right next door to it, probably not the best move.
So now we’ve gotten better with vetting owners to where we know the property is going to make a certain range. I personally now only take either really unique stays or places that are either lakefront or have some type of massive pool or something, like some big draw feature that I know it’s probably going to make $100,000 in gross revenue that year.That’s my personal baseline. And I also have questions to ask the owner. You got to vet the owner out and make sure that it’s going to be somebody you want to work with. Guests you can’t do anything about. They’re always going to be a wild card, but the owner is going to be a consistent. So we ask the owner, “Would you be willing to put a budget in to improve the property and spend money on the things that need to be done? Will they do a deep cleaning before you even take over the … Pay $500 for a deep cleaning?” Little things like that and talk about your operations.
And if you’re getting signals from them that they’re like, “Oh, that costs too much for the cleaning.” Or even for one owner in particular, we charge 20% on the rental. We also have a tech fee each month and we also have a setup fee. This owner kept messaging me, “Hey, can you do 17%? Hey, could you do 18%? Could you do 16%?” I think three different text messages. That already is a massive red flag. If they are trying to negotiate a two or 3% deal with you and y’all haven’t even started, those type of red flags, if your gut’s telling you like, “Hey, this owner probably is a little difficult,” unless it’s just a cash cow, multimillion dollar place on the mountains or something, you have a great opportunity, you’re probably going to regret taking that place after a while because the owner is just going to … We call them golden handcuffs, basically, where you’re stuck to the owner, they get to make all the rules, but they’re kind of making your life more difficult.
I had another owner that was arguing with the cleaning fee of what we charge and what the cleaners have. And it’s like the fact that we haven’t even started and you’re worried about what my team is charging that you have nothing to do with, probably a bad sign. So there definitely is a little bit of just feeling out the owners. And I can’t recommend enough of getting some baseline questions and just being very candid with the owner and seeing what the reaction is and trusting your gut.

Ashley:
That’s great advice because I’m thinking of myself as an owner and you would not want to be my … So before we go to break, I have to hit you with some rapid fire questions because I want people to continue listening to this episode. And I think these are three questions that everybody is already thinking. How much time a week are you spending co-hosting?

Garrett:
So I spend 10 to 15 hours. I have a big team I have built out though. That is one thing that has … The cool thing about co-hosting is it’s helped me scale my cash flow so much to match my own investments that I now have the loose cash to hire a team. I have three full-time assistants, an operation manager that’s on salary, a full social media team, all kinds of things. But that come from co-hosting and having that cash flow to be able to put back into my business.

Ashley:
How many properties are you co-hosting for? I

Garrett:
Think it’s 16 currently.

Ashley:
And how much are you bringing in a month?

Garrett:
Co-hosting a loan, I’d say, because some of them have different variance rates, and that’s one thing that I’ve been able to … I even have one co-host client that I get 65% of the bookings. I can go into the details about it, but we make probably $50,000 a month between the 16 rentals, I’d say. A few caveats of where that money goes and how the payouts go. But we probably retain profit-wise, I’d say $20,000 a month, maybe a little less between … But some of those come with a lot higher rental agreements that I was able to work out with certain tiny home builders that I partnered with.

Ashley:
Well, we have to take a short break, but I hope that really caught your attention if you’re looking to make an extra 20K. And not to forget, Garrett works a full-time job and has his own rentals too. So we’re going to take a short break, but when we come back, we’re going to show you how to step-by-step implement your own co-hosting business. We’ll be right back. Okay. Thank you for taking the time to check out our show sponsors. We are back with Garrett. So Garrett, can you walk us through a step-by-step business plan for getting co-hosting off the ground? What are the tools, the resources we need? What are the first things we should be doing to actually start co-hosting?

Garrett:
So the first big thing with co-hosting is getting … Let’s say you don’t have any co-hosting clients at all. And let’s just have the idea that you don’t even have a short-term rental even. We’ll make this as simple as possible for people. There’s two real ways that I have seen me, and I know there’s a lot of other options out there, but there’s two real, I want to say free, but there’s probably a little cost associated here, time cost for sure. First is you can go on Airbnb and find properties that are … They look like they’re struggling. They maybe have really bad photos, their ratings, the reviews are really bad. Whatever sticks out to you that is not working for their listing, I want you to … And Airbnb makes this a little tricky. I’m a realtor, so I have my real estate license.
So I have a lot access to a lot of data on the backend in Texas of who owns a property and things like that. But if you don’t have that access, you go on Airbnb, and this is fun to me because it’s kind of like being a detective to figure out who the owner is and how to get in touch with them. So you go on Airbnb, you start looking at the photos and Airbnb will show you a general location to where that property is. So you already at least kind of know where it is. You can see some streets. Sometimes it may even show you the exact streets it’s on, but you look at the photos, see if you see any street numbers on … Sometimes photographers will leave, you’ll see the house and they’ll have one, two, three, six on the house. So that may be the street address.
You also look at the aerial photos to see what houses are nearby, kind of like the orientation. Is it facing a lake a certain way? Is it facing a street a certain way? And then I use my real estate license. Maybe you know a realtor in your area that can help you pinpoint something, but there also is some cool softwares like PropStream is a really good one. You can get into PropStream and start searching around that exact area and click a few listings and they’ll pull up photos from past MLS listings or wherever the data they get from. And eventually you’ll probably find that house in PropStream and they’ll be able to show you the owner.You’ll see the house, be like, “That’s the house.” I can see it in the Airbnb photos. They’ll give you the owner contact information. One of my favorite co-hosting listings that I ever have, which is easily one of the most profitable ones I ever have was a really unique stay.
I’ve been trying to get in touch with this guy for months. I knew exactly what the house looked at, but I couldn’t pinpoint it down. I eventually got on … I used PropStream this time because I was working within the software already and I was like, “Let me try some more things out on it. ” This was a year ago when I first really got into co-hosting really, really tough. I ended up finding the guy. I took his information. I can’t remember if PropStream had his telephone number or not, but you also can go to whitepages.com. It’s like $5 a month. You can type that address in. I got his text, I got his phone number, I got his email, all that. I just text the guy and I was like, “Hey, your property’s basically way nicer, way more complete, but like, hey, I could tell your property’s been struggling a little bit.
We do co-hosting in the area. I know we can bring it to the top of the market.” And instantly, the guy was super excited to finally hear from us. I’d send him some letters and I never heard back from him. And so I was like, “Let me get this guy’s phone number.” I text him, started a great relationship, easily one of my best. So you can go the Airbnb investigative route, which is fun because you got to piece clues together and be like, “Oh, this property looks at it like it’s at this cross street.” But the other really cool route that I’ve seen a ton of people be very successful with is get into Facebook groups. Every single little city, even in my area, one of the counties is called Polk County and they have a massive Facebook group with 80,000 people in it that is Polk County talk.
There’s people all the time popping up like, “Hey, does anybody know a cleaner for a vacation rental? Does anybody know a photographer or a contractor?” I’ll send them a message and go, “Hey, I work in the area. Let me know if you need anything.” Or there’s also Airbnb owners Facebook groups. And sometimes people will, you can join those and in Texas, there’s like an Airbnb masterminds of Texas free Facebook group. You join it, hosts will all the time jump in and go, “I’m not getting any bookings. What should I do? ” I’ll send them either a DM with five or six very simple … I’ll go look at their listing and send them a DM with five or six simple things that I think will help their listing and show value. I don’t ask for any money. I don’t ask for anything. Don’t tell them I even co-host.
I just provide value to them. And then it’s up to them at that point to decide, okay, this guy actually knows a little bit. Maybe I should talk to him a little more because he actually gave me some great insight and didn’t even ask for any help. And 99% of the time you go on their Facebook list or their Airbnb listing and it’s like, “Hey, you need better photos. Hey, you need to adjust your minimum stay. Hey, you need to be pet friendly.” It’s kind of simple stuff, but to the owner, it’s revolutionary because they’re not thinking about this. Even with the property-

Ashley:
They’re literally describing our first call together that we did for Fingertips. I didn’t want to throw you under the bus, Ashley. Those are literally the thing. Except for the photos. I did use a professional job. You did have

Garrett:
Good photos, for sure.

Ashley:
But you did have me rearrange them, that was for sure.

Garrett:
Yeah. But you’ll be shocked. People underestimate Facebook groups so much. I will always stand on this soapbox until years to come. Facebook groups are one of the most underutilized way to gain traction in any type of real estate investment or business that you’re looking for. You just have to look in the right Facebook group and know how to provide value. That’s what it all comes down to is providing value.

Tony:
Garrett, that was an amazing masterclass on sourcing potential clients. And I just want to add my own experience. So we at one point explored the idea of co-hosting and we’d actually put together a pretty solid approach for sourcing clients. And it was similar to yours, but we actually used, and you can use either AirDNA or you can use a PriceLabs market dashboard. But for example, if you use PriceLabs in their market dashboard tool, when you go into a certain market, PriceLabs will give you all of the listings within that market. And then what we did was we sorted it in reverse order from lowest review score to highest review score. And then one of the columns that PriceLabs and both ARD&A give you are the latitude and the longitude coordinates for that listing. So we would then take those lat and those long coordinates, plug them into Google Maps, do StreetView, confirm that it was the right address.
And sometimes it’d be spot on. Other times it’d be right down the road and you have to take the blue man or the yellow man walk them down the road. But pretty quickly we could find the actual address and then we would do what you did where we take that address, put it in the prop stream, get the owner’s information. And our approach was creating postcards, but what we did with the postcard was we would actually take a picture of the front of their house and then we would put the negative reviews on the postcard. And a lot of the listings now that Airbnb added … So you guys know Airbnb has like top 1%, top 5%, but they also have a bottom 10% and it’s right above the review. So if you’re listing this in the bottom 10%, it’ll literally say right above your reviews, this listing is in the bottom 10% of homes based on guest experience or whatever it may be.
And we took a screenshot of that and we mailed those out to a bunch of owners and that’s how we kind of got the phone ringing initially. Very much like a sniper approach, but the response rate was actually pretty solid. It looks like one of the guys actually forwarded that letter to his property manager because then we got a lot of threatening calls from that PM after the fact, but it was a very, I think, effective strategy to try and source people.

Garrett:
Yeah, no, I love that. I actually didn’t even know that you could get the latitude and longitude from price labs or air DNA. So now I’m like, my brain’s exploding even more there because like, oh, I can’t wait to really dive in there. But yeah, no, that is a great approach. We had a little success with postcards. We didn’t do something like that, but I do love that idea. I’m sure there were some property managers very upset, but you should be performing better if we have to point this out. I mean, come on.

Tony:
Yeah. Imagine paying someone and you’re listening to the bottom 10%. It’s crazy. So Garret, going back to like the 30,000 foot view, the step by step. So it sounds like step number one is to identify potential clients and then reach out to them. I guess, so let’s say that someone picks up the phone or they call you back from a postcard. What does that initial conversation look like to get them from, “Hey, I’m potentially interested,” to them actually signing on as a client?

Garrett:
You have to figure out their pain point. Even in all my realtor days and everything, I don’t want to call it a sales call because in the end we’re like, we’re value in a service based thing. But most of the time, the reason the owner ended up calling you because they realized there’s an issue and you are probably the solution for it. So when I take the, I call it the lighthouse is the one that I’ve referred to a few times where I text the guy, got his number a few years ago. When we had our first initial call, my first question just right off the bat, like, “How’s it going for you? Oh, we’ve had one booking all year.” And I was like, “Well, what’s the issue? What have you seen be the biggest pain point?” And he’s like, “Oh, well, we have to have a three-day minimum because I’m worried that we’re not making enough money and I’m always worried I can’t drive up there.” And they just start rattling off things.
You just need to be a good listener and figure out what their biggest issue is that they have and solve that immediately for them.
And this is why you need to be prepared too. You can’t just send out all this stuff and you don’t know anything about co-hosting or running a good short-term rental because you’re going to get questions and you’re not going to be able to answer. You’re going to be like, “Oh, well, dang, that sucks. Good luck.” But he presented like, “Hey, I have to do three-day minimum because our cleaning fee is so expensive.” And he started rattling off things. And I took each one, I reiterated the problems. I’m like, “Okay, so you’re having an issue with getting things fixed. You’re worried that you’re going to be on vacation with your family and something’s going to break.” And then I address those problems of how we solve those. And I have a team in place. I don’t live far from the area. Sometimes that’s even just not … You don’t want to put yourself out there as being the runner of sorts, but if you’re just starting and you don’t have a team, you are the team.
You’re the coach, owner, player, and mascot. So you got to wear all the different hats there. So figure out how you can solve that problem for the host. And there’s always common issues. Like I said, the most common by far is, I can’t deal with it when I’m not there, we’re struggling. We have to block off dates because I just took over another one not long ago. She was like, “We’ve only been able to run it a couple months a year because we live in Mexico 10 months of the year.” And I was like, “Well, that is a super simple solution because my whole team’s in place. I live near the area. We have systems and structure. We have a cleaning team that handles everything. We have 24 hour coverage to assistance and all that. ” Between AI and just having a couple of virtual assistants, you can achieve all that.
You just have to make sure you understand what you’re, I don’t want to say selling to the host, but make sure you understand what you’re providing to the host. But easiest way to get more clients, figure out their pain point and solve it for them.
You always be shocked at what the small issue is that allows them to decide that you’re the right one for the property. It’s never like 20 different issues. It’s usually one or two big things that you can easily come up with a solution and they’re more than willing to at least probably give you a chance.

Tony:
Okay. Let’s talk, right? I mean, because after you do all of this active listening and you’re understanding what their pain points are and then you present your co-hosting as a solution, what are maybe the biggest objections you typically hear and how do you overcome those?

Garrett:
Biggest is always like, “Oh, it costs too much.” Or like, “Why am I going to give you 20%?” That’s usually the first one. Like we even mentioned earlier, some people will be like, “Well, what about 17%?” And you got to stick to your numbers, but then you also tell them how I kind of frame it is even with the person that had one booking all year, we presented it as like, “Hey, we can do this tweak. We can make you pet friendly. Our cleaning team will be enhanced.” And then that price becomes … And we’ll also work on, we have dynamic pricing. So you’re not even going to see that 20% from your bottom line because we’re going to increase your revenue so much that If you’re making $20,000 this year and if you can bring us on and pay us 20% and we can still make you $40,000 that year and you work less, which one sounds better?
You got to just kind of talk to them in plain numbers and tell them how the reason that the 20% or whatever rate you want to charge isn’t going to be a big deal because you’re going to increase their revenue with the tactics that you have. So also I get very tactile as far as helping them understand of why pet friendly is so big because it’s the number one search filter on Airbnb. We talk about how high level our cleaning team is. And then we also talk about how we’re going to adjust their calendar to make it book better. And it’s good when you have case studies and experience, because I can very easily rattle off numbers that we do in the area and have an idea of what they’re going to make. But some real simple solutions is a lot of owners don’t know what air DNA is or price labs or something.
Go on air DNA or price labs and get the revenue that is expected. It’s not always guaranteed. It’s a suggestion more than anything. But take that number to the host. And then also I bring some competitors in their area and say, “Hey, this place that is two streets down from you is making double what you’re making. Air DNA says you should be making 50K and you’re making 25K. Our company can take you to that next level.” The other thing too is you need to stand out because there’s a lot of people. And two really cool ways that we’ve stood out recently is there’s a company called Breezeway.
They have a short-term rental safety inspection certification, a lot of words there. But it was like three or $400. And there’s a great guy, Justin Ford, he’s amazing. We took the course, it saved us thousands of dollars on our insurance bill with proper insurance too, which is my own units. But as a co-host, now we go and tell owners like, “Hey, we’re short-term rental safety certified. We know what to look for to make sure guests are safe.” We walk them through all the liability things, which is something that owners care a lot about and they don’t think about. We talk about how they need to get specific short-term rental insurance from proper or steadily or something like that. And then the other really big thing is we tell, because they’re always worried about parties and damage, we tell them like, “Hey, as a part of our co-hosting fee, we can supply between 1500, it depends on how big the property is and how much it costs, between $1,500 and $10,000 of guest damage insurance that we will cover in our percentage.” We use a company called Safely.
It’s like five to $7 per night that we pay it out of our thing. But that peace of mind for owners is … We’ve sold so many owners when we tell them those two things that we’re short-term rental safety certified and we also can provide our own damage protection that they don’t even have to worry about. And it came in handy. A week ago, a guest at one of my co-host properties broke the door jamb. They said if the door just fell off, which is hilarious because we all know that didn’t happen, broke it. I take security deposits, but I didn’t even go to the guest. I put it into Safely. It was like $600. I sent an invoice, my handyman fixed it. They paid it out within two or three days. Guests never got charged. Owner never … They knew because I wanted to show them how good the insurance is, but I didn’t even have to tell the owner.
We could have just handled it and kept it moving. So those are two really cool benefits that I’ve been able to bring on a lot of owners recently by just showing that I’m a little different and that I really care about the owners and their property and their place and their revenue.

Ashley:
So for that software, is that fee paid, the owners are paying that directly or is that part of your fee structure that you have set where some of these different things that maybe a normal co-host wouldn’t know to get the safely insurance coverage or whatever? But how does your fee structure work and what are some of the things that you include or don’t include?

Garrett:
So we include that in our fee structure. We kind of consider that not at cost of doing business, but more like I said, it’s an upsell of why we are a full service premium concierge co-host. We charge 20% for the nightly rental rate of almost every property. Like I mentioned, I do have some where I get 65%, which we can talk about, but completely different structure. That’s more of like a partnership between me and the tiny home builders. But most of them, we do 20% nightly rental rate. We collect the full cleaning fee, which most of them are pretty even with what the cleaners charge me, but there’s a couple where I still make maybe 20 or 30 bucks off the cleaning because of logistics and other things too, and how we’re able to price it.

Tony:
Garrett, let me just ask you really quickly. So on the cleaning fee, are you just sourcing the cleaning out to third party cleaners or does your property management company actually have cleaners on your team that are doing the turns?

Garrett:
So I’m in two markets where we have multiple units in each. One market, I actually have hourly cleaners that work for my property management company. The second market, we do a subcontractor. She’s been with me for three or four years. We kicked the tire on bringing her on hourly and did a couple different reasons. It wasn’t going to work for either side fully. So we pay her per project and she has a full team out there that she kind of takes. I kind of consider her in- house, but she’s still a 1099 subcontractor. So we outsource it, but she started with one property with me and she’s grown to five or six people that work under her. And so I trust her. She knows how I operate. And so we always turn the cleanings over to the team that we have in place there. And there’s a lot, again, Facebook groups.
I found all of my cleaners through Facebook groups. People think I’m crazy, but every single cleaner I work with and that is on our team came through a local Facebook group through a little trial and error. And so we do that. We take the full cleaning fee. Most of the time we don’t make money on it. Sometimes we make a little bit. We also charge, and this is something recently I’ve implemented, we charge $1,000 property setup fee for each time we bring on a property, and that is to get new pictures. There’s so many things that I learned that you would expect owners to do. And then you get to the property and you’re like, there’s 10 Amazon boxes here and you didn’t unload any of them. Now you’re expecting me to do it, which is fine. But that’s when I started implementing the setup fees.
So I can bring myself or my helper to go out there and to get the pictures and the videography. And then we also now have implemented $100 a month tech fee. We used to not do this, but honestly, the softwares are what run a lot of these properties. And a couple properties, there’d be some months where they weren’t as profitable as we want and we were almost barely breaking even on them. And a lot of it was because of extra software that we paid between Logify is my property management software. We have Price Labs, we have HostBuddy, Turno, my business line of phoneware. We do just having our website hosted that we have to have another property on there, things like that. So that’s why we started doing $100 a month tech fee, which I just implemented that. So I know some people that do that and some people that don’t, but I think going forward, it’s kind of something that people should go ahead and start charging to the owner.
But when you’re just starting off, one of my friends, Alison Kraft, who I think she even was on the rookie podcast maybe at some point, I can’t remember, but she’s a rockstar. She’s got like 20 or 30 units. And her first unit, she was like, “I took like 8% on the co-hosting. I didn’t know or like 10%, something wild, but she still made like two or $3,000 a month.” So there’s ability out there to have some flexibility. And when you’re first starting, you probably can’t get to what we did where you can do 20%, $1,000 setup fee, $100 tech fee. We can do that because we’ve built the reputation and have the numbers that back us. But sometimes when you start off, you might have to take a little lower or not be able to do that and just get the trial by fire going so that way you can learn all these things as you grow the business

Tony:
Side. Gary, we’ve learned so much already and I appreciate you sharing all this with us. We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to go over how do you set yourself apart from other co-hosts and really what kind of boosts your income as a co-host in this space as well. So we’ll be right back after we’re from today’s show sponsors. So we’re back here with Garrett. And Garrett, I want to understand, you talked a little bit before the break about liability and the track record that you have, but as more folks come into the space of Airbnb co-hosting, what are some of the things that they should focus on and that you focus on to try and separate yourself from the other co-hosting options that exist out there?

Garrett:
So I touched on a couple earlier when I talked about the liability side and understanding that to educate owners on the guest damage side, the insurance they need, and also how you’re going to set them up for success on the safety of their property. I personally think my hot take going into 20s, 26, and I don’t think this is much of a hot take because my numbers and my bookings will tell you this, we do like 90% direct bookings now, is pricing is going to matter a lot less in 2026 and marketing is really what is going to move the needle for short-term rentals everywhere. There’s so many options now, so many things. And if you’re just trying to do like, “Oh, we have the best…” Everybody has dynamic pricing. I can’t remember, I think I was talking to Sean Rocky Geech a week ago and we were talking about how 70% of listings now use some form of dynamic pricing.
So it’s not an add-on bonus anymore. It’s kind of a necessity. But if you can somehow, which this is kind of one of my strengths I feel like, and it is the marketing side, but if you can learn some small things about marketing, whether it’s how to really build your search engine optimization for your website, how to even run some simple TikToks and IG reels or hire somebody to help you with it. And even like paid ads, even in my company now, we have a full-time paid ads person that we are able to show this to owners, say, “Hey, we have a person that works full-time on the ads. We have our own marketing spend that we spend each month, but would you want to contribute your own personal marketing spend that only goes to your property to increase your visibility and increase the bookings and your revenue and all that?
” We break it down in a business sense. So if you’re a co-host, there’s no more negotiables on you got to know pricing, you have to have top-notch service, top-notch automations and guest concierge to it, but that extra bit that I guarantee you is going to not only make more revenue for you, but also close more deals is that you can speak a little bit of the marketing language that is going to be needed going into 2026 with some of these properties. And I say all that too, on my main website, we have all of our properties, right? But each week we will go in and write a blog for one of the particular houses or not each … Once every few months, each property gets its own blog basically that is search engine optimization driven. So we have a property, the Lighthouse again, it’s on Lake Livingston.
We will do a blog that says the best vacation rental near Lake Livingston or near Houston or whatever the keywords we want to use is. Now, that blog will live on Google and there’s a good chance of somebody typing in, especially the higher your site gets ranked and you do some things. If somebody typing in best vacation rental near Lake Livingston, there’s a good chance that blog is going to pop up and you’re serving the owner with more additional outside marketing that really is free. You can create a blog in 15, 20 minutes now. So I give that as an example, but I just want to incentivize people to learn the marketing side a little bit or turn it over to somebody that does know it because that going into 2026, everybody has professional pictures, everybody has dynamic pricing, everybody’s listed on multiple platforms. That’s not a way to stand out anymore.
Now it’s about getting your property in front of eyeballs that were not on Airbnb and all the OTAs already, and you need to capture them before they get there. Instagram is the new OTA, if you want to be honest. So that’s where everybody’s searching TikTok and Instagram. That should be where a lot of your focus is going into into 2026.

Ashley:
Gary, you’ve mentioned a bunch of times that you’ve built a team to really help you run this business, but what about for a rookie investor just getting started? Do they need to hire a team right away and who would be your first hire?

Garrett:
So if you work full-time like me and you have a busy life and you’re going to at least need boots on the ground and the first hire always is going to be your boots on the ground team. You don’t need the virtual assistance and all that, like operations manager, all the stuff that I have now. But when you first do it, you have to have a rockstar cleaner, a backup cleaner as well. You’re going to have to have one. People always shy away from that, but there’s going to be a time where your main cleaner can’t make it, and then you need a rockstar handy person and you need to know all the subcontractors in the area. That alone is going to save you and pay your cleaners and handy people well, because they’re going to go above and beyond for you, that way you don’t have to always drive out to the property and handle all these things that you really shouldn’t as you’re building a business.
But if you get that set up and you start to, you’re a little overwhelmed, I’ll give you the easy … I don’t want to say the easy route. I’ll give you the route I would do going forward is using something like HostBuddyAI or any kind of these AI tools that are out there. There’s one called Conduit. I even got an email today of a new one called Hosto or something like that. But some of these AI tools are better hosts than even me. They’ll answer questions overnight, they’ll reply in two to three minutes. I even sometimes like a guest will send me something and I have to copy it, put it into ChatGPT and go, “Make this nicer, make my response nice because I have too much emotion in this. ” And then I’ll send it back. But HostBuddy and all the other ones out there, they take the emotion out of it and they’re a host on twenty four seven for you.
And it’s like $10 per property. It’s going to be very integral into getting back your time when you have one or two properties. You’ll still have to have a human touch to it. So you’ll have to monitor it and do a few things there. But if you start growing after that, it would be easily getting a really, really good virtual assistant that can handle a lot of these very mundane tasks and things as you grow. But for your first couple properties, I don’t think you really need a team if you get an amazing cleaner and an amazing handy person there because you can handle most of the other thing and automate a lot of it for the messaging and all that kind of side. But boots on the ground, there’s no AI for that unfortunately yet. Maybe coming. I don’t know.

Ashley:
And Garrett, you really helped me open my eyes to a lot of this. I started using Hospitable and just when I used to have somebody co-host for me, they would message me and say, “I’m going to be on a flight. I won’t have WiFi. Can you just watch the messages for me? ” So I just thought that was a standard thing. Now that I have Hospitable and it literally responds to pretty much every message for me, I’m on the airplane like, “Oh, three messages taken care of. I didn’t have to do anything. Here it is. ” So that was a big eye-opening thing to me too, because usually I’m very skeptical of AI, but I have never ever seen AI this good because you do the chatbots on website when you ask for help and it’s just like awful. This is so good and I have to agree way better than I ever could.
They have the little improve button and I’ll just like, if that, it will make it so much nice if I even have to respond to the person.

Garrett:
And most of the time they never even realize they’re talking to AI. It just does so well. And some of these tools, Hospitable has a great AI engine. They most of the time think they are talking to you and that’s all we want.

Ashley:
Everyone thinks Ashley is so nice.

Garrett:
Yep. I love it.

Tony:
As we wrap things up here, I think just what is your long-term vision for co-hosting? Do you want to build this into the next Vacasa or Evolve where you’ve got thousands of units or tens of thousands of units? What’s your goal? How big do you want to scale this thing?

Garrett:
So I definitely do not want to get to that level for a million different reasons we won’t talk about on this podcast. But the cool thing about, and what I want to lead people with this, and even into 2026, I’m really geeking out basically over commercial real estate. I mean, I know Tony, both y’all have probably been involved in some projects, but the really cool thing about co-hosting is that you can get, say you get … I have 20 … Or I think I have 16 now, but we’re growing a lot more. If I get 50 contracts in a couple years, you can sell those contracts as a business to somebody that is looking to either buy your business or a private equity firm or whatever. And a lot of people, so you have 50 contracts and you’re making 20% and they’re estimated to make, let’s say $50,000.
So 50 times 10, that’s the $500,000, somewhere around there. I’m sure my math maybe is a little off. You could sell that business with those contracts to somebody for like between a one or 3x multiple, depending on your teams and your operation and all this. And you could sell that and exit out at a million dollars possibly evaluation and maybe even … There’s so many exit routes when you have a business because you can sell it as a business or I can just keep it in internal as long as I want and let it … Because now that I have this team and all this, it makes my units that I own more profitable because I’ve had the economies of scale where I’m spreading out the marketing, I’m spreading out the cost of my VAs, I’m spreading out the cost of my helpers and things.
So the really cool thing about it is you can sell it as a business or it can make your own real estate investments even more profitable going forward as you figure out what your exit plan is. My exit is I probably want to sell the co-hosting business in about five years and hopefully exit out in the great fashion that I just outlined.

Ashley:
Well, Garrett, thank you so much for joining us today. Can you let everyone know where they can reach out to you and find out more information?

Garrett:
Yep, of course. Bigger Stays YouTube channel is the BiggerPockets short-term rental YouTube channel. We also have our Bigger Stays newsletter that goes out each week. And on Instagram, I am Garrett Brown RE. Always happy to chat and talk anything Airbnb or real estate investing in the world for y’all.

Ashley:
Thank you so much for joining us. We always appreciate you coming onto the show. I’m Ashley. He’s Tony, and we’ll see you guys next time.

 

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For the last seven years, my wife and I went from basically no assets to a roughly $1 million net worth. And we did it entirely through saving money and investing—not selling a business or inheriting money. 

During that time, we’ve saved 45%-70% of our relatively modest incomes. My wife was a school counselor earning a teacher’s salary, and I’m still growing my business and reinvesting most of the profits. 

How do we do it? And how do other people find their own ways of saving half their income? Here are some strategies.

Automate Your Savings as Your First “Expense”

After every paycheck, the first “expense” to come out of it should be your savings. 

Many payroll providers let you split your direct deposit into both your checking and savings accounts. Or you can just set up automated recurring transfers from checking to savings or your brokerage account. 

Nowadays, robo-advisors can even pull money from your checking account on the cadence you set. I use Schwab’s, and it pulls money every week and auto-invests it for me. 

I also practice dollar-cost averaging with my real estate investments, not just my stocks. Every month, my co-investing club meets to vet a new passive real estate investment. Each member can invest $5,000 or more if they like, and I invest every month from my savings. 

Score Free Housing

There are many ways to score free housing. Yes, you can house hack with a multifamily. But that’s far from the only way to do it. Here are some other ways:

  • My friend used to rent out her spare bedroom suite on Airbnb. She didn’t even own—she lived in a rented apartment. She found that if she rented it for two long weekends each month, it covered nearly all her monthly rent. 
  • My business partner used to host a foreign exchange student. The stipend covered most of her monthly mortgage payment.
  • When I bought my first home, I rented out a bedroom. It covered three-quarters of my mortgage payment, and I made a lifelong friend. 
  • When my wife and I lived overseas, her job provided us with free furnished housing. 

Get creative and research the many ways to score free housing beyond house hacking. 

Ditch a Car

When my wife and I first moved abroad, we unthinkingly went to rent two cars. Then we asked a question that would change our lives: Do we really each need our own car

We decided to try sharing one car for a month as an experiment. Sure enough, it worked completely fine, especially with one of us working remotely. 

A few years later, we moved to South America, and the free housing was within walking distance of my wife’s school. We asked ourselves a new question: Do we need a car at all? 

It turns out that we didn’t. For six years, we lived car-free, walking, biking, and scootering and occasionally Ubering. 

When we moved back to the States, we bought a used car, which we currently share. Given that it costs nearly $12,000 a year to own a car, avoiding one creates huge savings. 

If you must buy a car, buy a boring, reliable used car that you can drive for decades. It’s not a fashion statement—it’s your transportation expense. And the lower it is, the more you can save to build wealth fast. 

Make Nearly All Your Own Food

DoorDash and Uber Eats have made it too convenient to order delivery. If you want to both save money and eat healthier, learn how to cook. My wife and I make enough for dinner that we each have leftovers for lunch the next day. 

Sure, we occasionally enjoy a dinner out, but we don’t indulge our lazy instincts to just pay someone else to make our food for us. 

Cultivate Free Hobbies

Cooking is the ultimate practical hobby, saving you money even as you eat better. But it’s far from the only one. 

I love hiking. It’s free, it’s exercise, you get fresh air, and you can do it with friends and family. 

I also love reading: also free due to this newfangled service called a library. 

Even my business, the co-investing club, serves two roles in my life. Yes, it generates income for me, but it also lets me invest small amounts in the kinds of real estate investments that normally require $50,000 to $100,000 at a minimum. That’s the whole reason I started it in the first place—I wanted to spread my own personal money across more real estate investments. 

As a final example, it’s been a lifelong dream to write novels. Last year, I finally got serious about it and am currently about halfway through my first one. As a hobby, it’s not only free, but it also has the potential to generate income (assuming it doesn’t suck). 

I know other people who do woodworking as a hobby business, or plan travel for other people, or pet sit. Hobbies can make you money rather than costing you money, if you get intentional about them. 

Avoid Consumer Debt

As I wrote recently, savings begets more savings. By spending less money, you avoid high-interest consumer debt like credit card balances or buy now, pay later (BNPL). 

And if you have some existing debt, a high savings rate helps you knock it out much faster, again saving you money on interest. 

Travel Hack

My friend who used to rent out her apartment on Airbnb? She wasn’t there half the time anyway—because she was off traveling the world for free. 

She enjoys free business class flights all over the world, using points and miles. You can learn how to do it too. 

You can also save money by traveling with friends and sharing accommodations on VRBO or Airbnb. If you both have kids, that also makes it easier to take turns wrangling the children. 

Pool Resources

Despite having a 5-year-old, my wife and I don’t have a babysitter on speed dial. Family and friends watch our daughter for up to a week at a time, and we look out for them and their kids when possible as well. 

You can share pet care as well, or carpool, or pass books around. Break out of the mindset of paying for everything yourself, and start building the kinds of deep relationships that let you share responsibilities. 

For that matter, this is exactly what we do as an investment club each month. By combining our knowledge and money, we can invest both smarter and with smaller amounts. 

Borrow Instead of Buy

When I want to read a book, the first place I go is the Libby app on my phone to check the local library. I borrow e-books for my Kindle and audiobooks to listen to while working out. 

There are also public tool libraries, where people can borrow tools. Sometimes they require a small membership fee, but that costs a lot less than buying tools yourself. 

You can join a gym instead of buying all your own weights and equipment. Or better yet, take free workout classes on YouTube. 

Borrow clothes or jewelry if you need something you don’t own (and clearly don’t need very often). And so it goes.

Move Overseas

When we lived overseas, we saved 60%-70% of our income. Since moving back to the States, it’s closer to 45%-50%.

Overseas, the savings all stack on top of one another. We didn’t need a car, living in a walkable city with cheap Ubers. High-end health insurance was affordable. We didn’t pay full U.S. income taxes due to the foreign earned income exclusion. We got free housing from my wife’s employer. 

And of course, the cost of living is much cheaper in regions like South America, Eastern and Central Europe, and most of Asia and Africa. 

I also became a better real estate investor by living overseas. Who’d have thought?

At a 10% savings rate, yes, it will take you 40 years to reach financial independence. At a 50%-70% savings rate, you can do it in under 10 years. 

Go ahead and keep living paycheck to paycheck if you enjoy the stress of it—or start supercharging your savings rate and wealth to escape the rat race fast.



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Eviction filings are up nationally, eclipsing pre-pandemic highs that could well test the rental market for years to come, while landlords struggle with elevated expenses.

During and after the COVID-19 pandemic, many landlords faced a nationwide eviction moratorium and court closures, leading to missed rent while maintenance and other expenses piled up. In many instances, emergency rental assistance arrived slowly, forcing many landlords to skirt insolvency.

Moratoriums were lifted as the housing crisis deepened, making it far from an easy landing for both tenants and landlords. Princeton University’s Eviction Lab, which tracks filings in multiple states and more than 30 cities, found that eviction filings nationally have returned to near-historic averages and, in some places, surpassed them. 

With each state and many cities having their own unique laws to protect tenants, becoming a landlord in 2026 is far from plain sailing.

Soaring Numbers

In the 12 months through late 2025, cities such as Nashville, Tennessee; Austin, Texas; and Greenville, South Carolina recorded filing rates far above their local baselines, with Nashville’s filing about 46% higher than its 2023-24 average, and Greenville’s rate reaching 21% of renter households. The United Planning Organization noted in an April 2025 white paper on Washington, D.C., regarding the 10-year high in evictions there that the dramatic increase was due to rising rents, expiring federal and local rental assistance, and a shortage of affordable units.

States With the Heaviest Eviction Activity

Virginia

There have been over 139,000 filings in the last 12 months in Virginia, which equate to 13% of the renting households in Eviction Lab’s monitored areas. Areas such as Richmond and parts of Northern Virginia have been particularly affected.

Tennessee

In Nashville, filings in 2025 were far higher than pre-pandemic norms.

Texas

Large urban counties in Texas, including Harris County (Houston) and Dallas County, report elevated findings compared to 2019, while Austin reached a five-year high for evictions in August, placing Texas amongst the states with some of the highest filing numbers.

Indiana and Missouri

Indiana had one of the highest eviction rates before, during, and after the pandemic, aided by landlord-tenant laws that favored landlords, meaning tenants could be out after a month behind on rent. Indianapolis has a particularly high rate of eviction amongst minorities. In June of last year, a judge ordered Indiana to resume its pandemic-era rental assistance program.

On the other hand, Missouri has the distinction of having some of the lowest eviction filing fees in the country. High-risk minority neighborhoods have been particularly affected in major cities such as St. Louis.

Minnesota

Court data and legal organizations say the state is on track for near-record eviction numbers, with over 23,000 cases filed by late November 2025, up by 30% from the roughly 15,000 annual filings prior to the pandemic, according to the nonprofit HOME Line.

Public housing in the Twin Cities accounts for only a fraction of Minnesota’s eviction filings. Most come from private landlords, including small owners with a handful of units.

Displacement and Gentrification

The changing face of many cities is driving up rents as affluent renters move in, pushing long-standing renters out.

“What happens is we have these very high-income folks coming in, like tech workers, and that skews what is considered affordable,” Shoshana Krieger, project director for Austin-based nonprofit Building and Strengthening Tenant Action (BASTA), told KUT.org. Krieger works with renters facing eviction and other housing issues. “This impacts our lower-income people, where their wages or income haven’t grown at the same rate.”

Austin’s median family income for a family of four has gone from $76,800 to $133,800 over the last decade.

Low-Income Renters and the Patchwork of Eviction Laws

It’s hardly surprising that low-income renters are particularly vulnerable to eviction, particularly those earning below $75,000 a year, according to the Urban Institute. Complicating issues is the confusing patchwork of eviction laws across the country. 

If you are considering investing, it’s essential to know your city’s tenant protections. Simply deciding to invest in a state or city with lower eviction numbers might not tell the complete story. Tenant protections can often be as simple as longer notice periods, stricter documentation requirements, and limits on late fees. However, if these are ignored, the peril of refilling and delaying the eviction process awaits.

The Pressure on Small Landlords

For small landlords, the spread of the right-to-council policies and other tenant-representation initiatives can keep nonpaying tenants in their apartments longer. In New York City, for example, the right-to-counsel law applies to a large share of low-income tenants.

While corporate landlords have generally been able to withstand the uptick in evictions and the delays resulting from legal representation, smaller landlords have had a tougher time. The costs of filing and court fees, and the churn of continually renovating apartments, have a devastating effect on the bottom line. The Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis points out that corporate single-family rental investors file for eviction at a much higher rate than small-scale investors, suggesting that institutional landlords can absorb eviction costs far more easily.

Final Thoughts

Continually having to file for eviction is the death knell to a small landlording business. The best eviction is the one you never have to file. 

However, amid the affordability crisis, rising evictions are increasingly prevalent in the residential investment business. It’s invaluable for landlords to take the necessary steps around tenant selection and eviction.

Use eviction as leverage

It’s important to proceed with eviction steps once rent is late, but if a tenant can catch up within a certain time frame, it probably makes more sense to negotiate a solution rather than incur turnover costs.

Pay attention to local laws

Landlord-tenant laws vary widely across the country. Make sure you are familiar with your own situation before you invest, not after.

Know your rental assistance pipeline

Many counties and cities have rental assistance funds or nonprofit organizations that can help tenants who are unable to pay rent. When a tenant falls behind, provide them with this info, as not only could it help them catch up, but it also creates a documented record that you pursued alternatives before going to court.

Tighten screening

Don’t go easy on background checks or on verifying income and references. You want the best of the best tenants in your properties.

Budget for legal hassles

With legal assistance for tenants, evictions are taking longer than ever. Create a financial buffer to account for this.



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Condos could be the sleeper real estate investment you never thought you needed. If you’re looking to buy a severely discounted asset to capitalize on cash flow, a condo might just be the ticket because nationwide, condos have just experienced their steepest drop in value since 2012, despite house prices continuing to rise.

According to data from financial data and technology company Intercontinental Exchange, as cited by The Wall Street Journal, condo prices plunged in September and October 2025, with the biggest discounts in pricey coastal metros and investor-heavy second-home markets such as Florida. 

In Manhattan, a condo-saturated borough, one-third of the condos that changed hands between July 2024 and July 2025 sold at a loss, according to brokerage Brown Harris Stevens.

“The most promising opportunities for condo buying right now are in inner cities and areas with central locations that experienced drastic price adjustments, owing to the trend of remote work. Fairly located properties are available at significant discounts to buyers who do not mind the momentary mood,” real estate expert Andrew Reichek, founder of Bode Builders, told MarketWatch.

A Perfect Storm of Soaring Costs

So what’s the catch? Condos have been caught in a perfect storm of soaring HOA fees and insurance costs stemming from the collapse of Champlain Towers South, a 13-story, 136-unit complex in Surfside, Florida, in June 2021. Additionally, hybrid and remote work has cooled condo demand in urban areas, as workers can move to single-family homes in more affordable areas, dubbed “Zoomtowns” by Business Insider.

Jennifer Roberts, real estate broker at Coldwell Banker Warburg, told MarketWatch:

“Higher HOA and common charge fees and insurance costs are making [some] condos less affordable. Plus, older condo buildings are facing huge assessments and become a money pit. If one has a longer time horizon, it’s a good time to buy where the market is soft to take advantage of negotiating opportunities and being well-positioned for when the market recovers.” 

The Condo Malaise Is Nationwide

Condos are also getting hit from the financing side. The Surfside collapse prompted Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to increase structural scrutiny of condos, requiring reserve funding for deferred maintenance before approving loans, leading many condo building sponsors and developers to pursue all-cash deals, according to MarketWatch. 

And the condo malaise isn’t just limited to Florida and New York. Texas cities Austin and San Antonio are experiencing a supply glut, forcing prices down, according to the Journal. Meanwhile, West Coast cities San Francisco and Portland are still reeling from the pandemic’s damage to their downtowns.

A Golden Opportunity

This delicate situation may encourage deep-pocketed investors, such as Wall Street heavyweights facing a ban by President Trump from buying single-family houses, to purchase condos for cash instead, though it’s too early to speculate. What is not debatable is that deeply discounted condos present a golden opportunity for potential landlord investors, provided they can navigate the additional costs of ownership and offset them with low mortgage payments and high rents.

Former Owner-Occupants Turned Landlords

The first wave of new condo landlords is likely to be former owner-occupants who have rented their residences rather than taking a financial hit by selling at a loss. This is especially worthwhile for owners who have low interest rates, and it’s a strategy that could be employed by all cash buyers who can swoop in and buy low. 

For investors seeking financing, it is still possible to get a great condo deal by adhering to strict underwriting guidelines that focus on HOA and insurance costs.

A Seven-Step Condo Cash Flow Strategy for Small Landlords

Step 1: Analyze a prospective condo based on the rent it can generate 

Calculate rents after HOA costs, rather than price per square foot. You can use the standard 1% rule to determine cash flow (i.e., if a property costs $300,000, it should generate $3,000 in rent), and adjust it for HOA costs.

Example:

  • Purchase price: $300,000
  • HOA: $600/month
  • Target rent: $3,200-$3,600/month

If rents haven’t fallen in line with prices, the deal deserves deeper analysis.

Step 2: Analyze HOA profiles meticulously

All HOA fees are not created equal. Look for those that are about 15%-30% of the gross rent—less is always preferable. 

Here’s what else to look for:

  • It has fully funded reserves (or at least 70% funded)
  • There is no deferred structural maintenance.
  • It has clear post-Surfside compliance documentation.
  • There’s no pending litigation with insurers and contractors

Beware of red flags, such as vague language around “future capital needs,” HOA yearly increases of more than 10%, recent insurance nonrenewals, and high investor concentration (a complex with a majority of owner-occupied condos is always the most stable).

Step 3: Target fixable financial problems, not broken buildings

Examples:

  • A catch-up plan is in place for underfunded reserves.
  • Delayed engineering reports are scheduled.
  • Buildings are transitioning from nonwarrantable to warrantable within one to two years.

Smart financing choices:

  • You can put down 20%-25% in a conventional loan to minimize interest rate costs.
  • Target local banks and portfolio lenders with flexible financing options.
  • Look to purchase with cash (if you are able) and refinance later—BRRRR style.

Step 4: Geography counts, as insurance matters more than ever

  • Target lower insurance areas such as inland metros.
  • Northeastern and Midwest urban cores are in high demand.

Step 5: Consider rent demand

Condo values fell because buyers disappeared, not renters. Condos are usually built in urban areas with a high concentration of well-paying jobs. 

Look for condos near hospitals, universities, and transit hubs, staying away from luxury cores and instead focusing on secondary downtowns where prices are lower. Focus on cities where single-family rentals are unaffordable. 

Target these professionals to ensure premium rents:

  • Medical personnel
  • Graduate students
  • Urban downsizes
  • Corporate renters
  • Divorced professionals returning to the city

Step 6: Underwrite conservatively

You are essentially buying a condo for cash flow, so keep appreciation out of the buying rationale. Buy below replacement cost, and invest for the long term. Estimate a stable rent growth of 2%-3% and an HOA creep of 3%-5%.

Step 7: Plan to have a three-pronged exit strategy

  1. Cash flow hold for another investor.
  2. Refinance once a building becomes warrantable.
  3. Retail resale once buyer financing improves.

Final Thoughts

Condos are the deals hiding in plain sight. Because the condo narrative is so negative at the moment, many investors are bypassing them, expecting HOA fees and insurance costs to kill most deals. However, given the deep discounts being offered, they deserve an investigation.

One advantage of a cash-flowing condo is that, as part of an enclosed building, there are no external issues such as snow and leaf removal, roof upkeep, or gutter and downspout concerns to worry about. 

For the hands-off investor, condos make a lot of sense. Finding one that checks all the boxes is the all-important first step.



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Dave:
President Trump’s housing policy is starting to take shape, as in just the last couple of weeks, the White House has announced several new policy proposals targeting many different parts of the housing market, all with an intention of improving housing affordability. And in today’s episode of On the Market, we’re diving into the Trump administration’s philosophy on housing policy, the potential impact of the specific proposals we know about, and how retail real estate investors should respond. Hey, everyone. Welcome to On The Market. I’m Dave Meyer, real estate investor, housing analyst, chief investment officer here at BiggerPockets. And as you probably know, housing and home ownership, they’re a big part of American culture. And right now, given the very low levels of affordability that we have in the market, it’s really on people’s mind even more than normal. Because even if you don’t work in this industry, it seems everyone is talking about, has an opinion on, and in most case, has an opinion on what is wrong with the housing market.
And sure, some people might be content with the housing market, but I think it’s fair to say that the general sentiment right now about the housing market is just negative. People are not happy with low levels of affordability. They’re not happy with low inventory. They’re not happy with high rents. And I think that is fair criticism. It is really not a good time in the housing market. And now, because of that, politicians are starting to take notice. And we saw this back in November when a couple of regional elections hinged a lot on housing policy, very notably, the mayoral race in New York, but it was happening all over the country, and it is now starting to get more and more attention on a federal level as well. In just the first few weeks of 2026, President Trump has said that he’s considering declaring a national housing emergency, and he has even started to share some policies that he’s pursuing in the near term to alleviate some of the considerable housing challenges that are out there.
Now, as we all know, much of housing is local, it’s handled at a town level or at a state level, but federal policy can play a large role in broad market trends. And as such, we’re gonna dive into this today on, on the market. We’re gonna figure out and talk about what the White House’s approach is to housing policy. Now, of course, as of now, we are light on details. Nothing significant has actually been passed or implemented yet, but we’re starting to get a sense at least of the philosophy that the White House is going after. They’re picking the levers that they’re going to try and pull to improve affordability. And just from that, we can learn a lot. We know what sectors of the market the president is intending to target, and we can really actually start to draw some conclusions, start thinking about how we as investors can adapt to what might be coming in the near future.
So in this episode, what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna cover briefly, first, the affordability challenges in the United States, talk about some of the stubborn challenges that we face. Second, we’ll talk about the White House’s emerging philosophy. We don’t know everything yet, but we can see some things about their philosophy, and I’m gonna share a lot about my thoughts about what might work, what might struggle to actually impact the market. And we’ll also talk about a couple policies we’ve gotten some details about, and we’ll dig into those and how they can impact you specifically. And then lastly, we’ll talk about strategy. What you should be doing right now, what you should be thinking about, and what you should be watching for in the coming months as more and more housing policy comes to a head. So that’s the plan. Let’s do it. First up, we’re talking about affordability.
If you listen to the show, you know, this is what I’ve been saying for three years, four years now, that it’s the biggest challenge in the housing market. The way affordability goes is the way the housing market goes. If it gets better, the housing market will get better. If it stays like this, we’re in for a long slog. And people know this. This is no secret. This is not some insider thing thinking about affordability. At this point, people are really feeling that the housing market is unaffordable. And it is, I should mention, it’s not really just feeling this is actually a measurable thing that is going on in the market. There are different ways that you can evaluate affordability in the housing market, but no matter how you look at it, it’s bad. Price to income ratios are pretty bad. When you look at rate adjusted affordability, so you factor in mortgage rates, also really bad, near 40, 50-year lows.
Rents are super high. It’s just, generally speaking, more expensive than it normally is to find shelter and kind of buy a lot. And of course, there are a lot of reasons to this. Everyone wants to blame someone, right? Some people wanna blame investors like all of us or Wall Street. Some people wanna blame Airbnb. Other people want to blame the Fed. Some people want to blame the lack of supply. The truth is, it’s a combination of things. I wish it was so easy that we could say it’s just this one thing that is causing the housing market to be so unaffordable. But unfortunately, that’s not the truth and that’s not possible. But I think I can actually narrow it down to maybe just three big picture things that are causing this affordability. First and foremost is since the great financial crisis, construction has lagged, and that has just created a housing deficit in the United States.
You’ve probably heard me say this, but depending on who you ask, there’s an estimated shortage of between three and seven million units in the United States. We just haven’t built enough homes to keep up with demand, and that in itself puts a lot of upward pressure on pricing. This is econ 101. When there is not enough supply to meet demand, prices go up. Now, at the same time as that, two other really important things happen that have negatively impacted affordability over the long run. The first is millennial demographics. There are just a lot of people who are getting to the home buying age during the last 10 or so years. That means there’s a lot more demand when there’s a lot less supply. That’s basically the perfect recipe for prices to go up. Now, the third thing, and, you know, you can pick which one you think is the most important, but this is a very big one, is that we just had really cheap money for a really long time.
Some people would say that we had artificially cheap money because the Fed kept rates really low. We had quantitative easing where the Federal Reserve was buying mortgage-backed securities. They were buying treasury bonds, which keeps mortgage rates lower than they would have normally been. And when you have that situation, artificially cheap money for a long time, that’s gonna put upward pressure on housing prices, right? Because all of a sudden, even though the prices are going up, it’s actually still pretty cheap for people to buy homes because mortgage rates are so cheap, and about 70% of people who buy a home use a mortgage. And so if you have the longest period of sustained low mortgage rates for, like, 12 years, that’s gonna push up prices. On top of that, the quantitative easing didn’t just keep mortgage rates low, it also added new monetary supply. It’s a fancy econ term for just printing more money.
And so when there’s more money floating around and there are cheap mortgage rates, people invest that money into real estate. And for a while it worked, right? Because as long as mortgage rates stayed low, it didn’t really even matter all that much. It mattered some, of course, but it wasn’t super concerning that prices were going up because mortgage rates were so cheap. But as we all know, starting in 2022, that cheap money went away, and all of a sudden we’re left with this situation where, oh my God, we bid up the price of housing so much, and now the support that we had, those low mortgage rates are now gone. Wow, now we’re in a really unaffordable situation. So to me, these three things, the lack of supply, millennial demand, and the cheap money for a really long time, that is the big picture stuff when you’re talking about affordability.
This is the stuff that really matters when we start to talk about policies that could be implemented to fix affordability. There are, of course, other variables too. Airbnb, it does take some supply. That is true. Institutional investors do own more single family homes than they did a decade ago. But if you just look at the math, these are frankly just kind of minor issues. They really aren’t moving the needle in a dramatic way. They have not caused the situation that we’re in. They make an already bad situation a little bit worse, but they are not the driving causes of low affordability, and that’s really important when we start to think about how do you fix affordability challenges. These things, they’re kind of on the fringes, they’re not the major issues. So all of that is the context for our conversation going forward about Trump’s housing proposals, which we’re gonna get to right after this quick break.
Stay with us.
Welcome back to On The Market. I’m Dave Meyer talking about President Trump’s emerging housing policy that we’re learning more and more about basically every day. Before the break, we talked about the big three variables in housing affordability. That’s low supply over a decade of cheap money and just boring old demographics, sounds boring, actually counts for a lot. Now, the Trump administration has acknowledged a lot recently the affordability challenges that exist in America and their proposed solutions are starting to take shape. You’ve probably heard of a lot of these. I’ve actually gone into details on some of these specific ideas on the show. You can do some deep dives if you wanna go back a couple episodes, but what we’ve heard so far is stuff like a portable mortgage, a 50-year mortgage. Most recently, we’ve heard about $200 billion in buying of mortgage-backed securities and potentially even a ban on quote unquote institutional investors.
Those have come from the White House. We’re also hearing other politicians, Senator Josh Holly of Missouri suggested on social media, maybe people should be able to pull their down payment out of their 401k or their retirement account without any penalties. So a lot of ideas are flowing around. I wanna make clear none of this has happened yet. These are just ideas. But to me, as I look at all of these ideas, a theme, an important theme, is starting to emerge. It is what it would be known as demand side policy, because we all know in economics, right, there is supply side, how many houses are for sale, and then there’s a demand side. How many people want to buy a home and can actually afford to buy a home? And before we go on, I just wanna clarify the word demand in economics. It sounds like it’s just who wants to buy something.
It’s not actually what it means. It means who can buy something, but also who can afford that thing at the same time. And so when you look at the ideas that are being float around, what we’re seeing are demand side ideas. It is true that there are plenty of people who want to buy homes right now. The challenge is that they can’t afford it. And so what the president and other politicians seem to be mostly proposing is helping people buy homes. Let’s just look at the policies that we’ve talked about so far, portable mortgages, 50-year mortgages, buying of mortgage-backed securities, raising money from retirement accounts. All of this is aimed at stimulating buyers. The whole goal of these ideas is to improve affordability by making it easier, or at least a little bit cheaper for buyers to pay for that limited supply that we have.
Now, each of these ideas might move the needle a little bit more. Each of them, I think, personally have zone merits. I obviously have my opinions about each of these idea, but generally speaking, all of them are designed to do the same thing. So let’s talk through them and see how these might impact the market. First up is portable mortgages. I did a whole episode on this. Not gonna get into it here, but I think there’s a near zero chance that this happens in a way that people think there is almost no feasible way that people who have existing two and 3% mortgages are going to be able to take that to a new home. It would just undermine the entire way that mortgages work in our country. Maybe in the future, portable mortgages will exist, but you would have to originate that loan as a portable mortgage.
I think there’s truly no chance that this is going to happen in the way people are hoping for. If it did, and I’m wrong, great, that would be awesome, but I really just don’t think that’s going to happen. But let’s just say on its face, because we’re talking about the philosophy here, this would be a demand side idea, right? It’s not creating new supply. It might help break the lock in effect. That could help. But basically the idea is there’s not a lot of movement in the housing market. Noah would help people move and free up some inventory and maybe get some activity, some transaction volume back to the housing market. If we let people take that cheap money that we gave them for 12 years to a new home, that’s mostly a demand side policy. What about a 50-year mortgage? This one doesn’t even have that secondary benefit of supply, but this is just a straight up demand side, a policy aimed at lowering the monthly payment for home buyers, which could improve affordability.
We’re not gonna get into the details of this, but over the long run, obviously that would mean a lot more interest for people, but it would lower their monthly payments, not by as much as you would think, but it would lower people’s monthly payments a little bit, and that can improve affordability. Again, demand side support. What about a ban on institutional investors? If you did ban them, you would probably have lower competition. You might even have higher inventory. And actually, I’ve gone on the record and said that I think this one could help. I don’t think it’s gonna help nationally because institutional investors only own two to 3% of homes in the whole country anyway, but there are markets like Atlanta where they own 25% of the market or places like Jacksonville or Charlotte where they are super active. And if they stopped buying, and this, you know, we don’t know the details, but if this policy actually was designed in a good way, it could increase inventory and help a little bit in those markets.
I also kinda like this idea because I think it could prevent a problem that isn’t really that big of a problem right now from getting worse because as we’ve been talking about this whole episode, housing is unaffordable to the average American. But these big hedge funds, they can self-insure. They have access to cheaper debt than you or I do, and so they might actually be able to increase their buying at a time where it’s really unaffordable for Americans. So the idea of preventing them from doing that and taking that from two to s- percent to 4% or 5%, I think that might be a good idea. And while this can help inventory, it is still fundamentally a demand side help because it is not increasing the total supply of units that we have in the country. So again, more demand side stuff. What about the $200 billion in mortgage-backed securities?
That is definitely a demand-side thing, right? We already saw that after that was announced, it lowered rates by about a quarter of a percentage point. We’ve probably seen most of the benefit of that, so don’t expect a lot more declines just from that announcement alone. So this is something that can work and actually improve affordability in the short term. I like that the idea is doing this with real money, not true quantitative easing. They’re not creating money out of thin air to go buy these mortgage-backed securities. Instead, what they are doing is taking money that Fannie and Freddie May have, profits that they’ve earned, and they’re using that. So I do like that. But again, fundamentally a demand side thing, they’re trying to make mortgage rates lower because Fed action alone isn’t going to do it, but if you go out and buy mortgage-backed securities, that is a direct way to lower mortgage rates as we’ve been talking about a lot on this show.
Now, these are just a couple examples. We’re probably gonna see more in the next couple of weeks, but all of these ideas are trying to stimulate demand. Now you’re probably wondering, I’m making a big deal about this, right? I’m talking a lot about demand. Is that a bad thing? Like, is there a problem with demand side stimulus? No, I don’t think fundamentally there is a problem with demand side stimulus, but the way I come out on this is that if you only do demand side support without doing the other thing, without trying to figure out that third big variable, right, that supply side challenge, this could actually backfire. Now, it might help in the short term, but it could backfire long term. Demand side support does make things cheaper. That can get more people into the market today or tomorrow, but that induced demand just pushes up housing prices over the long run.
And then whether it’s six months from now or 12 months for now or three years from now, things are just unaffordable again, right? Because what would normally happen if you did nothing is the market would start to correct, right? It’s so unaffordable that sellers have to lower their prices. But if we just give demand side support, then more people will come into the market, prices won’t go down, and sure people might be able to buy a couple homes for a couple years or months, whatever, while that stimulus lasts. But as soon as that stimulus gets taken away and it usually gets taken away at some point, then we’re actually not even in the same position. We’re in a worse position because housing prices went back up. So it’s not like demand side alone is just a bandaid, it can actually make things worse. Now, we need to be clear that none of the policies being floated right now are even in the same universe as quantitative easing.
Again, that’s the idea of the Fed going out and buying mortgage-backed securities in treasuries, creating money out of thin air. That made housing prices go up so much, and none of the policies that are being floated right now are even in the same universe in terms of scale. Quantitative easing made things artificially cheap, so prices went up like crazy, but even though the scale is different, the idea is the same. You are making things artificially less expensive, which puts upward pressure on the pricing. Now, don’t get me wrong, I am not in any way opposed to short-term fixes. I know that it is a real struggle out there, and if the government is thinking about ways to make it more affordable for people to live, I am all on board with those kinds of things. But they need to be paired with supply side improvements.
As I said, at the beginning of the show, the biggest issues that cause the situation that we’re in are demographics, cheap money, and low supply. So if all we do is add cheap money and don’t fix the low supply, we can’t really do anything about demographics, right? Then it’s not gonna fix this in the long run. So we need to address supply. We can address supply. It is not easy. I admit that it is difficult to address supply, but it can be done. So if it were me, if I had the opportunity to design a perfect fix to affordability, which of course is not politically or economically feasible, I know, but if I just had a magic wand and I could design a way to get us from where we are today to a better housing market, what I would do first is stimulate supply.
We need more houses. That is just the way to do it. That would, could be through government grants, public-private partnerships, trying to bring down the cost of construction, whatever it is, we need more houses, but that takes years. So in the meantime, I do think you could use demand side support to make things better soon while that supply comes online gradually. Now, unfortunately, I don’t get to wave that magic wand and housing policy is really difficult. And so what we’re seeing right now is just the demand side stuff without the supply side fixes. Of course, we may see more, right? I’m just evaluating this in the middle of January, right? We may see more supply side ideas come soon. We’ve heard about the idea of, like, opening federal lands to building. Personally, I’m skeptical that that’s going to work. These are typically not places people wanna live.
They’re not great for housing, but we haven’t heard much else on the supply side. I think, frankly, we need a zoning reform, which is handled locally, not federally, but the federal government could provide incentives to states and local governments to do zoning reform. We need to reduce construction costs, which unfortunately are going in the wrong direction, and tariffs have actually sent construction costs higher in the last couple of months. So color me skeptical, I don’t think we have a long-term fix right now, at least among the policies we’ve heard about so far. And in fact, I think all this demand side support is kicking the can down the road and could actually make the affordability challenges last even longer. And I know as a real estate investor, this might sound crazy or people might not agree, but I think the best solution is letting the market correct.
Like, that is the natural thing that the market is supposed to do. When it is unaffordable, people should not buy homes that puts sellers in a bind and they have to lower their prices and that restores affordability. We’re already starting to see this. Prices are starting to come down in many markets. Affordability has improved four out of five months. What we need is prices to come down while rates come down slowly and while wages rise. That is the recipe for improving affordability. So if what we do instead is just stimulate demand, pricing could accelerate again, which would just make the long-term affordability issues worse, even if it provides a short-term respite for buyers. And I just wanna say, I see this all over the place. This goes across both parties. We’re talking mostly about federal policy here, but I look into this stuff a lot, and honestly, you see it everywhere.
Politicians, just generally speaking, look for easy solutions that can make things better in the short run, and I don’t blame them, like, people want relief right now, but you don’t see a lot of politicians, or governments, state, local, federal, whatever, figuring out ways to actually solve the long-term challenge of supply, because it’s really hard. It’s really not easy. And so you have to put in a very concerted effort over a long time to fix it. And unfortunately, I just think the way our election cycles work in the United States don’t really incentivize politicians to look at long-term fixes, right? It might take eight years to fix supply. It might take 10 years. Most politicians are worried about how to improve the lives of their constituents, how to win elections in the next two to four years. And I’m not saying that politicians are necessarily doing these things malevolently, but they just naturally look at things that they can implement in a short term and they don’t think as much about long-term fixes, which is why we’re getting a lot of demand side ideas and not a lot of supply side ideas.
So that’s my rant. Back to the, the main theme. Personally, I would rather see the market correct, get back to a healthier, long-term position, but I don’t get to decide those things, so that’s where we are. And I do think what … I, I don’t know which one of these things are going to come to fruition, but it does seem likely we’re gonna see demand side stimulus in the next year, for sure. And as an investor, that’s important. There are tactical things or strategic things that you need to think about if we’re gonna get demand side stimulus, and we’re gonna get into that right after this break.
Welcome back to On The Market. I’m Dave Meyer. Before the break, I gave you my thoughts on the short versus long-term implication of demand side stimulus and a lot of the stuff that we are seeing being proposed at the federal level. Before we move on and talk about strategy, tactics, things you should be thinking about, just a reminder that none of the stuff we’re talking about has passed, but I think it still makes sense to start at least mentally preparing for demand side stimulus because it’s probably gonna come, even though we don’t know which specific policies are gonna make it through, right? We’re getting a sense of the philosophy the Trump administration is using, and we can start to at least think about the things that we’re going to do. Now, I, again, I hope we hear more supply side stuff soon, but as we said, even if President Trump and the White House come out with supply side ideas, it’s probably gonna take years for those things to come to fruition.
So as investors, I think the game really is to prep for some demand side support in 2026. So, what does that mean for your portfolio? I’ll start by just giving you a summary of my predictions for 2026. And when I make predictions, I don’t say, “I think the market’s gonna crash, the market’s gonna melt up, it’s gonna be flat.” As a trained data analyst, I think in probabilities. I recognize I don’t know what’s going to happen, but I’m a good analyst and I can say, “Hey, there’s a 50% chance that will happen. There’s a 20% chance that will happen.” It’s not super precise, but you have to accept the idea that there are a lot of variables out there. There are a lot of different things that can come in the next year, and we don’t know exactly what’s going to happen. And so as we enter 2026, I benchmarked things this way.
I think the most likely scenario going into this year before we knew about this stuff is, uh, the great stall. I’ve talked about it a lot on this show, but I think prices are gonna be relatively flat and I think rates are gonna come down slowly. Wages are gonna go up. That’s gonna get us back to affordability, but it’s gonna take years, two or three years. And I said, “I think that that scenario, about a 50-ish percent case, that’s the most possible, but there’s a 50% chance something else happens.” I said there was a 25% chance that there was a melt up, which is prices going up, and that idea was precisely from demand side support. I thought there’s a 25% chance we see significant demand side stimulus, and that’s gonna create a melt up in prices. I put that at about a one in four chance, set about a 15% chance of a crash, and then I always leave about 10% for a black swan situation, just something we don’t see coming, because that can happen, and frankly, the world feels pretty black swanish right now.
So, does this change? Does the information that we have right now change a lot? I would say a little bit. I actually still think this is roughly correct, because we don’t have the specifics, but even if these things, you know, the general idea of what is going to happen, I don’t think it’s enough demand side support to really cause a meltup. When I was talking about a meltup being a one in four chance, what I’m talking about is maybe quantitative easing, or significantly more mortgage-backed security buying, more bond buying than $200 billion. 200 billion is a lot, but in the mortgage market is tens of trillions of dollars, and so to really move the needle on that, I think that we would need significantly more of that stimulus. So when I came into the year, I was thinking a moderately declining market. I said, I thought my best guess for the national market was minus 1%, but I kind of said it might be anywhere between negative four to positive two.
And maybe this stuff, if it all comes true, we get a little bit higher, right? Like maybe instead of negative one, I think we go to flat. Or maybe instead of a minus four to a plus two range, I give a minus three to a three range, right? It might move the needle a little bit, but I don’t think it’s going to fundamentally change things that much. Why? Well, there’s two reasons. First and foremost, it’s just not enough. Like I said, we’re getting mortgage rates, you know, they’re at six and a quarter now, they’re a little bit above six. That is not enough to fundamentally change the housing market, people’s behaviors. It’s just not. The second thing is even if we do get a little bit more mortgage rate relief, we’re probably gonna see supply come back with demand. Inventory will go up. Now, I think this is the fundamental miss in all of the analysis I see out there or on social media, people saying, “Rates are gonna go down and prices are going to go crazy.” No, they might go up, but they are not going to go crazy.
And here’s why. When mortgage rates went up, did prices crash? No, because supply and demand both moved. When affordability changes, it doesn’t just impact demand, it impacts both. Rates went up in 2022. We did see a significant decrease in the number of people who are buying, but we also saw a significant decrease in the number of people of selling, and that has kept the market stable over the last couple of years. So why then would you assume if rates come down that it’s only gonna impact demand and not impact supply? That doesn’t make any sense. What we will see if rates come back is yes, more people will jump in the market, but so will more sellers. It will break the lock in effect. And I do think we might see more demand come back than supply and prices might go up one, two, three, four percent.
I don’t know, but the idea that if rates come down, we’re gonna see the market go crazy, I’m not buying it. I just don’t think it’s going to happen. So that’s why I still think the great stall is the most likely scenario, but I do think the other probabilities change a little bit. Trump is showing that he probably is gonna do a lot to prevent the market from crashing. And he has tools like quantitative easing. It’s not totally up to him, it’s up to the Fed, but, you know, he has influence and is trying to exert a lot of influence over the Fed, but I think he will do everything in his power to prevent the housing market from crashing. And so I think the chances of a crash, you know, I said 15%, maybe they’re down to like 5% now, right? I think it’s less and less.
I see a black swan. Let’s bump that up to 15%. There is a lot going on geopolitically. We have no idea. And now I think upside is probably closer to 30% because I think, you know, we’re buying mortgage-backed securities, paving the way potentially for buying of more mortgage-backed securities or bonds. Like it is possible that we start quantitative easing at some point this year to stimulate the housing where market, and so I’m putting the upside now at 30%. So for me, I am gonna shift my strategy a little bit, but not too much, and here’s what I’m personally going to do. I’m gonna stick with my plan for buy and hold. I said at the beginning of the year, I think it’s a good time to accumulate assets, and I think that’s still the case, and potentially it just got a little bit better, because prices are still a little bit soft, but the upside is getting a little bit better.
There’s still more inventory, but we might see some growth in the next couple of years from this demand side stimulus, and that’s all the more reason I wanna get into the housing market right now, while I still have good negotiating leverage before too much changes, we’re sort of in this slow period where I think it’s a good time to buy, so I’m definitely sticking with my plan for buy and hold. I actually think just in the last couple of weeks, the case for flipping and value add just got a little bit better. There is less risk in my opinion of market declines. We have potentially better affordability, which could speed up transactions, making it easier for disposition for selling the properties once you’ve renovated them without a much harder buying process. So at present, before we know the details of any specific policy, I’m getting a little bit more bullish.
I’m not, like, fundamentally changing how much money I’m putting into the market, but I am probably thinking a little bit more aggressively, wanting to act a little bit faster than I had been just a couple of weeks ago. Now, I have also freed up some money, though, in case there is even more demand side support. I have a little bit of money I’m holding on the side, because if we see quantitative easing, if we say, “Hey, the mortgage-backed security thing works, let’s do more of that, ” I think I’m going to buy more aggressively. Like I said, in November, I think the chance of quantitative easing are higher than I would like. I don’t think quantitative easing is a good idea, by the way. I should just mention, I don’t want that to happen, but if it does happen, I will buy more real estate because prices are probably going to go up.
So I, that is one other thing I am doing is freeing up some money. I sold some money from the stock market last year and I’m sort of keeping it aside. So if something changes and I spot a big opportunity because potentially a lot of demand side support are gonna shoot up housing prices, again, not from the current policies, but from future policies maybe this summer, I am keeping some money available for that. So just to summarize, I think buy and hold still an excellent thing to be buying right now. There’s more and better inventory. The risk of decline is starting to go down. I think we still have a good buying window, but a little bit higher upside than just a couple of weeks ago. So all those things, I, I think I’m sticking with my plan, but probably gonna be a little bit more aggressive.
I think buy and hold, I think potentially Burr. I think flipping all can work in this kind of market, and we’re just getting a little bit more confidence. And confidence to me matters a lot, but we are seeing that there’s probably gonna be some support in the market, and that can be helpful in the short term. Because I do wanna say that if we have … Again, I wanna remind people what we’re talking about here. If we see quantitative easing, or we see a ton of demand side stimulus, yes, it will probably push up home prices in the next couple of years, but the risk of a bubble also goes up. The risk of a crash in the future, that also goes up. So buy accordingly, buy good value, buy cash flowing rentals. Do not get in this COVID mindset of buy anything because it’s all going to go up.
Some things might go up. Everything might go up for a couple of years, but if that happens, the risk that they come crashing back down is high. So you want to have those great assets. The fundamentals right now, they’re different than they were during COVID. Good assets are always going to perform. These are things that you wanna hold even if prices go down in the future. Great assets, even if there is a bubble five years from now, those will still probably be cash flowing. They probably won’t go down as much as everything else. They’ll probably still be worth more after the bubble pops than they are today. So you really just need to be disciplined. Stick to the stuff that we keep talking about on the show of finding great assets and being really disciplined, negotiate well, buy deep, a lot of that still works.
But that’s a long way away, right? As I said, I don’t think any of the proposals right now are gonna create that kind of bubble, but I just kinda wanna give you the pros and cons of a quantitative easing situation because I hear a lot of people saying, “Prices are gonna go crazy if rates come down. I don’t think it’s that simple.” So hopefully this explanation helps you a little bit in your own thinking. I wanna clarify one more thing before we get out of here. I did say I’m gonna be a little bit more aggressive. I’m gonna move a little bit faster, but my approach to real estate right now is still risk off. As an investor, I think there are times to take risks and to take big swings, and there are times to just stick to strong fundamentals. Now is a time to strict to strong fundamentals.
The stuff we have heard from the president, it hasn’t even passed. It’s not enough to have a ton of confidence, but it does make me feel that the window is there to buy, but I’m gonna focus really on the fundamentals, the bread and butter, because frankly, just everything going on in the world right now, we don’t know what’s going to happen, and so I’m just gonna stay in risk-off mode, but if I find something good, I’m going to buy it. Frankly, I just think it’s a good time to accumulate assets. I think risk is a little lower right now than it was two months ago. Upside is a little bit higher, but since we’re still in an uncertain environment, I recommend that you plan accordingly. Now, could that change by summer? Sure, we might know a lot more about policy. We might have a new Fed chair, we might have a couple new Fed voters, things could change a ton by then.
But the point of the show is to help you adapt in real time, and I just want to share with you how I’m thinking about the housing market here in January of 2026. And of course, we will continue to update you as things change every single week here on On the Market. That’s all we got for you all today. Thank you so much for being here and for listening to this episode. I’m Dave Meyer. We’ll see you next time.

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Over $20,000 per month in pure cash flow from just eight rental properties—all achieved in around a decade. Dion McNeeley did it and has inspired thousands of others to repeat his “boring” and self-proclaimed “lazy” strategy to reach financial freedom. Today, he’s teaching you how to do it, too.

A 40-year-old single dad with less than $1,000 in the bank and over $80,000 in debt is not who you’d think would become a multi-millionaire rental investor. But now, over a decade later, joining us from Thailand and making over $200,000 per year in cash flow, is the same man—Dion McNeeley! His tried-and-true strategy for rental investing is one anyone can replicate, and if you put in five years of hard work and another five years of patience, you, too, can be living your dream life, just like Dion.

Dion is walking through his exact rental property criteria and what he plans to buy in 2026. Plus, he’ll share his best advice for beginners, the first step every new investor should take, how to know you’re ready to invest, and three tips to optimize your portfolio to make the most cash flow possible.

Dave:
This investor went from $40,000 in debt to cash flowing $20,000 per month. He only owns eight rentals and they’re all in his local market. Today, he’s sharing his secrets. Hey everyone. I’m Dave Meyer. I’m a rental property investor and the head of real estate investing here at BiggerPockets. Back on the show today is an investor who was the breakout star of BPCon 2025 in Vegas if you were there. And he’s also the host of the Dion Talk Financial Freedom YouTube channel. It’s Dion McNeely. If you don’t know Dion yet, he has an incredible story. He went from crippling debt as a single dad in his 40s to $200,000 in annual cashflow by buying rental properties near Tacoma, Washington. Dion, he calls himself a lazy investor. He says he only wants to do boring deals. He doesn’t like risky strategies or even huge rehabs. He likes basic, fundamentally sound, long-term rentals that will make him money while reducing his headaches, and clearly he’s been able to pull that off.
Today on the show, Dion is going to tell us how he is continuing to evolve his portfolio, but he’s doing it without adding any stress to his life. And he’ll even update for us a couple of his signature Dionisms for investing in 2026. I’d call these tips secrets to investing success, but Dion is giving them all away for free right here, right now. Let’s bring them on. Dion, welcome back to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Dion:
Super excited to get the invitation. I’m happy to come and see if there is a way to get more people on the path to financial freedom.

Dave:
Well, I think you’re going to do a very good job at that. You are always very compelling and have such a good perspective on real estate. But before we jump into that, can you please just tell everyone what you’re up to right now?

Dion:
I always like to start with the end, because if you tell everybody just about those first few years, you might scare them away from this. But the end result is what makes it worth going through the five years of suck is I’m currently in Thailand. I’ll be here for the winter, probably a little over three months. And the best part of this trip isn’t that it’s warm or that the scuba diving is amazing or that the dollar goes farther here. It’s that I don’t currently have a return home ticket.

Dave:
Oh my God, that is unbelievable. I’m extremely jealous, but you have obviously earned it. But I wanted to bring this up because I think it’s important for everyone to remember exactly what you said, that real estate investing, it’s not complicated, but it takes effort.You’re going to have to put work into it and there are going to be some frustrating days for sure. But there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And Dion, you have figured out financial freedom in a way better than me, man. I got to say. I’m sitting here in Washington State. It’s been raining for five days. My heat went out this morning. I’m shivering and you just look comfy as can be and calm and happy. So good for you.

Dion:
No, here I have to have the jacket on because of the air conditioning, not because of the weather.

Dave:
Now you’re just rubbing it in. Let’s go back to the beginning. For those of you, Dion’s been on the show before, great episodes we’ll link to below. But for those of the people who haven’t listened to your episodes yet, Dion, maybe you could just fill everyone in about how you got started, what year that was, and just give us some

Dion:
Background. Now everybody will understand why I wanted to start with the end first, but my starting position was I basically made it to 40 without ever having $1,000 in the bank. And if I ever did, I spent it faster than I could think and then never on anything productive. I found myself a single parent with three kids, got laid off from law enforcement because of the 2008 recession when there’s the municipalities aren’t making money. They lay off cops to save money. And I found a job teaching at a truck driving school making $17 an hour. But in the divorce, I found out about $89,000 in bad debt in my name I didn’t know existed until the divorce. So my starting position was broke, low income, three kids. And I decided to make my own pension because first I tried the Marine Corps and they downsized after desert storm.
Then I tried law enforcement and they downsized after 2008 and I thought, oh, my pensions keep going away. I have no control. How can I make my own? And starting at 40, it really wasn’t even the idea of retiring early. I loved my job at the CDL school. I got demoted all the way down eventually to president of the company and loved what I was doing there. I used to say, “I don’t think I’ll retire early. I’m probably not going to retire late. I love the job so much.”
My goal when investing was I didn’t want to become a financial burden to my kids if I ever got too old to work. That was the starting point. And then the income snowball kicked in around year five and maybe year six. The cashflow got much more than I expected. The self-management got a lot easier than I expected. And in 2022, I finally just said, “Time freedom wins. I love the job, but I’d rather travel and scuba and enjoy my 50s instead of continue to build someone else’s dream. I’m just going to live my own.”

Dave:
That’s an incredible story. I won’t spoil it for you because we will link to Dion’s full episode and you can really hear about it. But it really is inspiring, Dion, because I mean, I don’t mean to be disparaging, but it just shows that anyone can do it. You were starting with what? You said negative $86,000, not even at the starting line when you first got started, and yet still you are here. How many years later is that?

Dion:
Well, it took eight years to reach basically financial independence where I could have retired,
But then I did four years, so it was 12 years total. So that eight to 12 that you named is basically perfect for my situation. I could have retired anytime between eight and 12 years, but I loved my job, so I wasn’t in a hurry to leave. And I did a four-year litmus test where from year eight to year 12, I didn’t touch one penny from my W-2 income. That was always rolled into investing. Wow. So for those years, I lived off rental income and I continued to save and invest most of the rental income. I live on a round, even when I’m traveling like this in Thailand, I’m going to struggle to spend five grand this month. A round trip ticket’s 800 bucks. The five star hotels are 60 or $70 a day. It’s crazy. Food’s super cheap. So even at home or here because I still house hack, I don’t spend that much.
But my passive cashflow coming in after every expense and after setting aside about 60 grand a year for future expenses, those roofs and things that are going to happen and down the road, I make about $21,000 off of eight properties with 18 rental units. So I’m still going to continue to add properties, but I’m not actively growing. It’s just going to happen as a byproduct. And the goal was never a bigger portfolio. The goal was the right amount of cash flow from the least amount of units. And that’s where I find myself now after a decade basically.

Dave:
Are all those units paid off or how are they generating so much cash flow?

Dion:
It’s one of my favorite questions. I actually make a video every now and then on why so much cashflow? And part of it is I recycled cash flow, not capital. So I’ve never taken out a home equity line of credit, never done a cash out refinance. I’ve not sold a property for a 1031. I might sell my first property in 2026. So it’s save a down payment, buy a property. I’m the creator of the binder strategy where my tenants ask me to raise the rent. That helps a lot. To reach financial freedom, I never did a rehab or a BRRR. I did my first Burr after retiring, and I also call it my last Burr. I’m not going to do that again. It’s too much work, even though it generated about $300,000 in profit, not doing it. But I buy duplexes. All my properties are small multifamily, except for the one single family house I owned before I was an investor.
But I look for places that have a family room, a dent or a bonus room. This is something I learned from bigger pockets. How can you create more income from the same property? And I never bought a property and kicked a tenant out, but when I had tenant turnover, then I would go to the family room or the dent and add a closet. Now I have a three bedroom each side instead of a two bedroom and the rent increases over $1,000 a month with that extra bedroom and then the tenant turnover. And then the missing element that most people have is time. If I say I have eight properties with 18 units and it makes 21,000 a month in profit, they would think if they went and bought eight properties, that’s where they would be and that’s not it.
I bought one, owned it for a decade. I bought another two years later, owned it for eight years. I bought another a year and a half later, had it for almost seven years. It’s owning a property for several years, having possibility for rent increases, value add, refinance. As I saved more reserves, I could increase the deductible on my insurance and bring the premiums down to increase income. So it’s a combination of multiple levers that you don’t have in the beginning. It’s once you have three or four properties and you start making an adjustment like a three or $400 a month rent increase from the binder strategy on one property is nice. But on seven, it’s thousands a month.

Dave:
And compounded over five years every year. I think that’s a great point because I bet when people hear eight to 10 years, they think that’s all because it takes time for acquisition or it takes time to save up money to buy that next deal, which does take time. But the benefits of real estate really do increase over time. That’s why it’s a long-term game because your rents will increase, your debt is hopefully fixed and is staying the same amount. You get better at management, so your margins start to grow and all the things Dion just mentioned. Even if you had all the money to go out and buy eight to 10 properties like Dion said right now today, you still wouldn’t have the performance that Dion has a couple years into his portfolio because of the things he just said and gaining new experience.

Dion:
We did an episode in February of 2025 on things I do backwards or these things that I call Dionisms, right? There’s one here, and I’m just going to ask the question, how many times in the real estate investing community have we heard the growth phase and the stabilization phase? It’s very common to hear those talked about as phases. Of course, yeah. Okay. Well, the growth phase includes stabilization on the properties that you own. So when you buy a property, it’s not like you just kind of ignore it while you add other ones. That’s the one you’re looking for when you have tenant turnover, what value add can you do? Can you add a fence to split up the backyards of a duplex? Can you do the closet thing? Can you add a storage shed for increased income? So you’re stabilizing and optimizing along the way.
So it’s not like once you reach financial freedom or the perfect size portfolio, now you focus on doing that. You do that the whole time.

Dave:
And that’s how you get to hang out in Thailand because you’re already optimized by the time you get all those deals. You have it all figured out. So tell me a little bit about your plan going forward, because you said you’re not necessarily in growth mode. So how do you decide at this point in your investing career whether you’re going to acquire new properties or do something else?

Dion:
Well, there’s two things that tell me when to buy property. And there’s some things that people say that tell me they’re never going to be an investor. If they say, “I’m going to wait for prices to come down or I’m going to wait for interest rates to come down.” If they’re waiting for prices to come down and they won’t buy in an upmarket, fear isn’t going to let them buy in a down market. And if they want to wait for interest rates to come down, that happens the same day prices go up because people buy based on payment, they can pay more. But the two things that tell me when to buy is, am I ready? Which a lot of people associate with math. They’re going to think, do I have the reserves? Do I have the down payment? But am I ready as have I studied my market?
Do I know my asset class? And is there nothing major going on in my life like birth, death, divorce, traveling to Thailand, proposing at the Tiger Kingdom? I actually have that short video out, so I’m now traveling with a fiance.

Dave:
Oh, congratulations. That’s so cool. Well,

Dion:
Thank you.

Dave:
That’s so exciting. Well,

Dion:
Now in retirement, I basically wait. I’m ready means the money’s piled up. So if I’m spending, if I try 5,000 a month, I have over 15,000 a month that’s going into an account that slowly accrues a couple hundred thousand dollars every year or two. And I’ll think, okay, I’m uncomfortable with that amount of money sitting in the bank. I don’t like that. Inflation is the enemy when it’s in the bank and it’s your best friend when it’s in a property. And then so in 2026, I’ll be adding another property because the money’s piled up. And so I’ll probably spend 90 days, even though I know my market, I know my asset class, I’m going to take 90 days to study current rents, current deals, current valuations, watch deals, and then I’ll be making offers and buy a deal. And then I’ll take another year or two off because I’m not an active real estate investor.
It’s just the best use of my money at this point.

Dave:
Tell me a little bit about the market conditions because you said it sounds like you don’t look at prices to come down. You’re not looking for interest rates to change. How do you view a market in 2026 and not be scared of it and say, “I’m not going to invest, but learn something about it so that you can choose the right kind of deal for you going forward.”

Dion:
So I’m never concerned about a crash coming. Interest rates or prices don’t impact how I invest. It’s, am I ready? Did I find a great deal? And the definition of a great deal for me is 5% math, 95% criteria.
So the math is important. We don’t practice the math until we get it right. This is right from bigger pockets. We practice the math until we can’t get it wrong. Then we stop focusing on math. So I’m looking for, even with setting aside for repairs, maintenance and vacancy, I don’t want to lose money, so no alligators. I want to make profit. I shoot for a return that’s better than my average area. That’s why I want to take 90 days before I buy. I want to figure out is currently in my market and sometimes markets shift. In 2021 and 2023, I bought deals because remote work had changed the landscape. Remote workers can live a little farther out from the bigger cities, which pushed rents up, but not prices because they weren’t buying. They were afraid they might get called back to the office. So I thought if friends have pushed up and prices haven’t, which deals make the most sense and I got the yield I was looking for.
But that’s the math. The criteria is I’m a long-term buy and hold investor. I want the minimum amount of interaction with tenants, keep them happy so I can travel. I’m not doing short-term, mid-term, and I don’t want tenant turnover even though it sometimes gets the best rent increase.
And that means I want to own single family houses. They have the longest tenant turnover. It’s like the average tenancy in a house is seven years. The average tenancy and apartment is two years. But single family houses in my market, they’ve never cash flowed in a decade. I’ve never seen one. The one I own only works because I owned it for a decade before I turned it into a rental.
And I even lost money the first year. So I want small multifamily because they have the yield I’m looking for with this caveat as similar to a single family house as possible. So I want side by side with fence yards, washer, dryer, hookup, separate parking, decent neighborhood. I avoid good school districts. We’ve talked about that before because most people priororitize that. I don’t want the tenant turnover or the higher taxes that comes with being in a good school district. So I’ve got all of this criteria. So in 2026, at some point when I’m ready, I’m going to study the market for about 60 to 90 days to understand what current rents and current prices and rates. What is the average yield? I’ll look for deals that beat that, but then I’m going to focus most of my time on side-by-side fence jards, washer-dryer hookups, safe neighborhood, all of the other criteria that lets me be financially free with the minimum amount of time involved with my rentals.
The rental you hunt for dictates what your life will be in 10 years.

Dave:
So let me just make sure I understand and summarize this because I think this is very, very smart. And I agree, especially in this kind of market conditions. For me, I’m just like, how do I find the best asset that I want to hold for 20 years? That’s my number one thing that I think about. But does it mean then that you create that buy box, right? Let’s just say you work with an agent, you go on Zillow, you set those criteria, and then you analyze deals for 90 days, basically everything that meets that criteria for 90 days. And then you say, “Hey, I found the needle in the haystack.” Now because I’ve analyzed so many of these deals, I know what average is. I want to beat average and by benchmarking myself against all of these other listings, now I can be confident that I’m going to beat average.

Dion:
When I first started, I would say take 90 days to learn your market minimum. When I was in growth mode, I never had to take 90 days because I was always actively tracking rents and tracking prices and rates. And it was, like I said, life consuming those first five years,
It took way more time. In retirement, since it’s just when the money piles up, I’m not going to go every two years and go buy a property. It’s every two years. I will now learn my market because everything changes. You have seasonality, what time of the year am I buying, what’s happened with remote work or the economy or universal basic income that might come if AI takes too many jobs or anything that could shift in the future that will benefit landlords. I want to make sure I’m optimizing how I’m buying based on what’s going on at that time.

Dave:
The way deals look today versus 10 years ago, interesting history lesson does not matter. It just doesn’t matter because your job as the investor, you had mentioned it earlier, Dion, what’s the best use of your time and money today? If it’s real estate, do it. If you think there’s something else you can do with your time and money, fine, go do that. But what happened 10 years ago? Totally irrelevant. You can’t go back and do deals that looked like that. So I love your advice of relearning your market because that’s the process for saying, “Hey, I’ve got some cash to spend right now. I have this goal that I’m working towards. How can I execute on that as best as possible with the conditions that are realistic on the ground and not thinking about, hey, could I have done a short-term rental five years ago?” Who knows?
But it’s honestly irrelevant. Maybe short-term rentals work today, maybe something else works today, but that’s the question you need to be asking yourself. So Dion, I do want to get your advice because you are a very wise man. You have a lot of good advice for people, especially who are getting started. I want to hear your advice for people getting started in 2026 or maybe just getting back into the market after a few years off in 2026, but we do got to take a quick break. We’ll be right back. As a real estate investor, the last thing I want to do or have time for is play accountant, banker, and debt collector all at once. But that’s what I was doing every weekend, flipping between a bunch of apps, bank statements and receipts, trying to sort it all out by property and figure out who’s late on rent.
Then I found Baseline and it takes all of that off my plate. It’s BiggerPockets official banking platform that automatically sorts my transactions, matches receipts, and collects rents for every property. My tax prep is done and my weekends are mine again. Plus, I’m saving a ton of money on banking fees and apps that I don’t even need anymore. Get $100 bonus when you sign up today at baselane.com/bp. BiggerPockets Pro members also get a free upgrade to Baselane Smart, which is awesome because it’s packed with advanced automations and features to save you even more time. So go to baselane.com/bp. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m here with Dion McNeely talking about the 2026 market. We’ve talked about Dion’s philosophy, how he spends a lot of time relearning his market every couple of years when he’s going to buy a new deal. So Dion, for people who are doing this, getting back into the market, or maybe they’re just buying their first deal ever, what advice do you have for people who are just trying to get into it right now?

Dion:
The first thing to consider would be imagine the cost of waiting. When I hear the people that say it must be nice to have invested five or 10 years ago, whatever the market conditions are, whether they think it was a pandemic or the recovery from the crash that made that more attractive, there will be a point in time, picture 2035 when people are saying, “You are so lucky because you bought in 2025. At BPCON 2025 in Las Vegas, look how many lenders were there looking for people to give money to.
” In 2035, that might not be the case. Lending might disappear like it did in 2012, 13, 14, when all of a sudden you can only have four conventional loans in your own name instead of 10 like we have now or whatever benefit we have now. So the advice to somebody starting today first to steal your words, it’s a 10-year journey. Don’t expect the first deal to be life-changing. Don’t expect the first few years to be fun. They’re going to be very slow. They’re going to be very boring. The expectation is from year one to year 10 that the cashflow grows like a diagonal and really it is almost flat line. I don’t think I broke $1,000 a month in cashflow for four years,
And then it still stayed pretty low until year eight and maybe eight and a half. It hockey stick growth kicked in, and that happens way later when you have multiple levers to pull. And this gets talked about often, but if somebody’s starting today, it was a requirement for me. It might not be a requirement for everyone else, but I suggest some form of house hacking. I’m not saying go add roommates. I like duplex, triplex, fourplex, but if that turns peoples off because of their spouse or their kids, I had three kids too. They were excited about moving, but a house with an ADU. And when I say that, most people think a house with a small house behind it because that’s what we can build today. It’s got to be behind the other unless you get a waiver. It’s only so many square feet. Derek, that ADU guy who you guys have had on the channel, he just builds ADUs.
What I did is look for houses with ADUs from before all of the laws and regulations. So I own a house with an ADU, which is a 2,500 square foot house and a duplex on one property. Somehow that’s an ADU situation. They’re not attached, they’re separate, but it’s one property, house with ADU. I’m not actually sure which building is the ADU. I was looking at another one that was a five bedroom house and a four bedroom house on one property. They just hadn’t divided it. And so the people who say they can’t start with a house hack because they have family, do they somehow magically live somewhere now where they have no neighbors because that’s how house hacking can be done.

Dave:
I know. I think for most people who have experienced some sort of city or even suburban living, it’s really not that big of a difference to your lifestyle.

Dion:
The second thing is the steps are the same to start or for me between deals eight and nine or whatever, it’s you’re saving. How do you increase your income and decrease your expenses? Saving isn’t just about spending less, it’s about increasing your income. So for me, that’s staying on top of what goes on with my rents, how do I do value ads? How do I mitigate my expenses, increase my deductible to decrease my premiums or whatever the strategy is. In growth mode, it was overtime, side hustle. I was playing World of Warcraft and selling things online as a side hustle, making hundreds of dollars a month, playing games with my kids to increase the savings rate, but then decrease the expenses. In growth mode, it was no streaming services, not eating out. I went eight years without a vacation so that the rest of my life can be a vacation.
So if you’re starting, what can you eliminate without making life unbearable? Maybe don’t eliminate all streaming services, but they’re really good at having one show you like on Netflix, one series on Hulu and the movie on HBO. So you got to have to have all of them. But if you can cut that back and you cut out the eating out meal, prep, less vacations, maybe not none like we did, then what is your credit score?
The steps are the same. You’re increasing your income and decreasing your expenses, work on your credit score, and then actually go talk with a lender. And the first three steps here, there’s no agent involved. There’s no auto searches, there’s no deal hunting, no funnels because you have to get all of this right. First. If you talk to an agent, one of their first questions, if they’re good, should be, “What did your lender say?” Because why look at anything until we know what you are able to do? Totally

Dave:
Agree.

Dion:
And I guarantee right now there’s some agent listening, going, nodding their head going, “Yes, please do that. Please talk to a lender to understand your options.” And I would never have gotten started if I had talked to agents first. They would’ve said, “Well, you hunt for a property or go talk to a lender.” And then I talked to a lender and the lender said, “You can’t borrow anything.”
My debt to income was so bad. The agents wouldn’t have understand usually to say, “Well, rent your house out for a couple of years, get rental income on your tax returns, and now your debt to income means almost nothing because we’ll look at the rental income on the property you’re purchasing.” And one conversation, the lender accidentally, she just kind of threw it into the conversation. I grabbed onto that and I thought, wait, that’s a thing and that changed everything for me. Once you talk to a lender and you know your steps, now it’s study your market to pick a strategy. So I worked in law enforcement for about eight years, and one thing a cop can’t do is you can’t show up on scene and go, “I think this happened. Let me find evidence to back it up.”
You have to show up on scene and go, “Let me look at the evidence and based on the evidence, here’s what I think happened.” And then as I’m studying it, as more evidence comes in, I will change my opinion based on that evidence. So market’s the same way. I looked at my market, I wanted to own single family houses, I understood them, I could house act them, I could buy it without having roommates or anything and then move out and rent it out, but they don’t cash flow in my market. So studying my market shifted me to small multifamily. I have a friend, she sold her stuff in Washington, 1031 to Ohio. And where she invested, single family houses made more sense than small multifamily. So you have to study the market to figure out what works, where you’re investing, what matches your resources, your abilities, and what matches your strategy.
And then after you’ve done all of that, that’s where the agent comes in. Your strategy could be driving for dollars, setting up mailers, working with wholesalers. Mine was working full-time, raising three kids. I had agents sending me emails and I filtered through those looking for the ones that I wanted. Kindergarten simple, wasn’t in a hurry. It took two years to buy the first duplex, two years to buy the next one. So in four years I did two whole deals, but that’s how you get to financial freedom is having a repeatable process. The work is not so much that you’re actually going to be able to do it.

Dave:
All right. That is great advice for beginners and people who are starting to get started, but I want to hear some of your best tips for managing and optimizing your portfolio next year because this is sort of your thing, Diana. I’d love to get your insights on it. If you had to pick two or three of your top pieces of advice for people who want to optimize their portfolio in the coming year, what would those things be?

Dion:
Well, thank you very much for the compliment. It’s very weird to have that because I am a product of bigger pockets. My starting position was so bad. I lost money that first year. I rented out the house. I didn’t see myself as a real landlord, so I rented to a friend because I couldn’t trust a stranger and I didn’t want the contract between friends. So we didn’t have a lease. And it was just every nightmare mistake I could make I was making. So I realized I was the problem. Landlording is not complicated. It’s simple. It’s not easy, but I was the problem because I was uneducated, 13 week bootcamp to become a Marine six-month academy to become a cop, and I’m just going to jump into real estate with no education and replace my income. So I started hunting for Rich Dad, Poor Dad, podcast.
At the time, BiggerPockets YouTube channel wasn’t very big, but I found the website. And there was guys like Michael Zuber from One Rental at a time who were writing on the website. So some article talked about how small multifamily lending was the same as single family, and that made a shift for me. And how do you find a lease and how do you screen tenants and all of the really basic stuff that I just was winging it. And because I found BiggerPockets in written form, that’s the dinosaur days, I’m financially free. So I want to thank you for the compliment, but thank you for the content that is helping people get here.

Dave:
I mean, you deserve all of it, man. I appreciate that. And BiggerPockets is really that resource and we love hearing that. And for anyone who hasn’t been on our website, it’s honestly crazy. A lot of people think we’re just a podcast. We have an amazing website. Go to biggerpockets.com. We have all of this free content, networking, the forums, these ways that you could have your answers questioned. It’s an incredible experience. We love that. But BiggerPockets is just like anything else where it’s like, it is what you make it. You have to go out and work hard and figure out your own flavor of how you’re going to be an investor. Because even though thousands, tens of thousands of BiggerPockets members have done this before, no two people are exactly alike. And I just want to, I think your story’s so cool because you’ve really come up with your own way of doing it.
And it’s based in fundamentals. It’s not like you’re completely just starting from scratch, but you have come up with a really unique and sometimes contrarian way of looking at problems as a real estate investor. And I don’t say this lightly. I don’t think there are all that many true thought leaders in our space where people are coming up with new ideas, but I think you’ve absolutely done that. So I think the praise is light compared to what you are deserving of. So we are very grateful of you continuing to be a member of the broader BiggerPockets community here, Dion. With that, I want people to hear this because you are a though leader. You have some really cool ideas about real estate investing. Give us your three top ones for how you recommend managing and sort of optimizing.

Dion:
So this is going to be a teachable moment that I take away from McDonald’s. We would all have to admit fairly successful business model. And if
People are familiar with Robert Kiyosaki, they know that McDonald’s is not in the hamburger business, they are in the real estate business. But in the 1990s, early 1990s, McDonald’s started broadening their menu. They said, “We have the chicken this, we have a salad that we have all of these different options.” And their profits tanked. Other people were able to duplicate it easier because they were smaller businesses. It was easier to implement. And in the mid ’90s when McDonald’s realized they had diversified their menu so much they were losing clients, they came out with their jingle about the Big Mac and they focused back on that hamburger that is the iconic thing of McDonald’s does Successful to this day. So in real estate, we tend to do the same thing. I wanted to buy long-term buy and hold rentals. So you fall down into the rabbit hole of how do I educate myself on this and what do you hear?
Burr, flipping, wholesaling, investing at a distance, short-term rental, midterm rental, all of these things that you can try. You’ll diversify your menu so much that you’ll spread yourself so thin. It’s like investing in real estate and stocks and crypto that you won’t master an asset class
Well enough to be successful at it. Well, in your asset class, pick the strategy that matches your resources, your timeline, and your goals, and try to focus on your hamburger. Mine is, even in retirement, because I save up money and I could easily do burrs. I could self-fund burrs. I’m not going to. I like to travel. I don’t like to do rehabs. I don’t like to pull permits. I hate going to the city and begging for permission to improve my property. Me too. That’s not me. There’s people who love that. If you thrive on that and the negotiation with the city and the contractors, go for it. That’s your hamburger. So that’s the first advice, is really focus in on what you can master so that you can get to the point where it’s boring. That’s where success comes from. It doesn’t come from the excitement of learning new things when you’ve been doing the same thing for 10 years.
Get that mastered.

Dave:
This is probably one of the more common questions I get is people say, “Hey, I’ve done two burrs, I’ve done a flip, I’ve done a single family out. What do I do next? Or where should I go from here?” And I usually ask, “Do you have to change? Is there a reason other than social media or the shiny object syndrome that you would do that? ” Because maybe if your stuff’s not working, you should go do something different. But why do you think it is so much in this industry that people have this tendency to want to just move on, try something either bigger or not even necessarily bigger, but just different from the kinds of deals they’ve done in the past?

Dion:
It is a part of the brain that we can’t remove. When I was reaching financial freedom, I have this friend who was also reaching financial freedom the same year, and he retired the same year that I did, but he has shiny object syndrome. Every time he would reach out to me for advice, he would say, “What do you think of RV pads? What do you think of buy the room? What do you think of short-term rentals?” And I would have to reel him back into what we’re doing is working. It’s very boring. I understand you don’t have excitement with what we’re doing, but if you repeat it one or two more times, let’s run the numbers again. And then he ended up sticking with it with his nice boring strategy and he’s been retired now for three years as well. And I have that conversation a lot of times with newer investors or people that I run into is they go, “How can I do what you did but faster?
Or how can I do what you did if I use a different strategy?”

Speaker 3:
And

Dion:
My strategy’s very boring. It’s one property, save a down payment, buy the property, keep a tenant long-term. I prefer to buy rent ready or already occupied properties. I’m all I can to buy and spend a bunch of time fixing it up. That’s very boring. But financial freedom after a decade is anything but boring.

Dave:
I love that. Yeah, I think that’s kind of the whole thing is just keeping your eye on the prize and realizing that your excitement doesn’t have to come from real estate. You can have your excitement come from anywhere else. There are some people, like my friend who’s on the show a lot, James Dinard, he loves flipping houses. He would do it for free if no one … I’m just the opposite of that. I like real estate. I find it enjoying. I like the problem solving, but I like the sort of big picture. Hey, I’m doing this because I know the other stuff it achieves for me in my life. I am not in it because I have this love of physical dwellings the same way that someone like James Dainer does. So I think it’s just really important for people, one, to have that long-term perspective.
And two, recognize what side of that line you’re on. There’s no right or wrong. If you’re someone who’s passionate about it, by all means, go be passionate about doing the kinds of value add. I know a lot of people who are contractors or architects or engineers who love building. That’s super cool. Go do that. If you’re lazy like me and Dion, maybe just do the more boring approach because that could work for you too and you can find that passion with the free time that you generate from your real estate investing. We got to take a quick break. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets Podcast here with investor Dion McNeely, talking about his very unique, memorable, I think super inspiring and relatable approach to real estate investing. So I love that as number one. You got to find your hamburger. What’s number two?

Dion:
So I think a smart person learns from their mistakes and a genius learns from other people’s mistakes. But the second piece of advice is, and this is kind of like a thing the way I put it in my head is amateurs chase deals, professionals chase repeatability. While I was starting, I was working full-time, raising three kids, didn’t have a lot of free time. Deals would be creative financing, seller financing, the Burr method so I could recycle my capital faster to get more deals faster. But when you don’t have a lot of time, well, that strategy is repeatable for some people, it wouldn’t be repeatable for me. So it was save a down payment, buy a property. Two years to keep studying the market, save the down payment, increase income, decrease expenses, and then two years again, sounds super boring, but it was repeatable to the point where more units didn’t mean more work.
I can manage my 17 rented out units because it basically feels exactly the same as when I had seven or 10. I don’t notice the difference. Two or three techs a month, maybe one email. I have my systems in place that well. In the beginning, that wasn’t the case. So getting my systems in place was more valuable to me than adding properties. And in the beginning, what is everybody focusing on? How do I get the next deal? It’s once you have the deal, how do I get my system? So how do I have a list of contractors for plumbing and electricity? So when I have an emergency, I have no stress because I’ve already got their phone numbers in my phone. Do I have a contact in my phone for every property so I know what tenants are there, when their leases are due, what their current rents are, what jobs have in my notes section, in my contacts, in my phone for every property, there is what’s been done there and when it was done and when I expect certain maintenance to happen.
All of these systems that make it very easy to travel, the entire business can be in a device. You don’t have to have anything, no spreadsheets or anything. You can have them, but you don’t have to have them to travel. So since my system is repeatable in growth mode, I didn’t even subconsciously resist adding units because it didn’t mean more time. And that’s very important to me in growth mode, especially because if it takes more work, your brain will say, “Oh, we’ve got enough. Don’t add any more. We can’t handle any more.”

Dave:
Yeah. I think this is one of the things that held me back the most as a real estate investor. I self-managed from 10 years. And if I had just figured out what you were just talking about, I would’ve probably doubled. I would add more properties because I wasn’t actually … I was lucky I had a high paying job and I could have bought more, but I just mentally never sat down to invest time upfront to clear time for myself later that would allow me to do that. And instead I was just like, “You know what? Real estate, I have another career. I’m not going to be working on my rental portfolio right now.” And I did that for years. And if I just recognized that I didn’t have a very good business at that point, I had good investments, but I didn’t have a good business or a good system or a good … The way you’ve put it, I couldn’t repeat stuff.
I was calling different plumbers every time. I was okay, but I could have done better and I could have grown faster. And it took me, God, way too long to figure that out, probably three or four years longer than it should have. And I missed out on probably scaling some of the stuff that I should have. And like you said, I don’t regret things because it all worked out in the end, the butterfly effect. But if I were to go back and could tweak some of the things, I think that’s the number one thing I would focus on more is systems early.

Dion:
And looking back, my systems weren’t there in the beginning either. My first few years were just like yours. It felt like it took 20 hours a week to manage my one tenant, let alone two hours a month to manage all of the tenants that I have now. So it was developing those systems over time, educating myself on bigger pockets, finding the people in the community to spend time around with to figure out how they do things. An example is the lumberjack landlord. For years, I would list my properties the wrong way when I had a rental. I would put them out there and I’ll get to the last piece of advice as quick because I can’t hear the … I would list a property the way an owner thinks. Here are the amenities. Here’s the age of the building. Here’s the square footage. Here’s the parking.
Here’s the distance maybe to the freeway. The Lumberjack landlord, he optimized my interacting with him, optimized my advertising my rental so much that I no longer hunt for a tenant. I have to filter through applications. And it’s by not talking about the property. The tenants don’t really care about the property as much as they care about the quality of life they’re going to have in the property. So take your address of your rental and put it in ChatGPT and say, “What are five to 10 things that my tenants might find attractive about the area that this rental is in? ” And it’ll pull up parks, it’ll pull up walking trails, dog parks, ChatGPT or Grock or whichever you use will tell you those things and have that in the listing, just bullet point. These are five things that could affect your quality of life if you lived in this area.
And now I get 30 to 50 applicants instead of five.

Dave:
Wow. I love that.

Dion:
Those are the systems. And the third thing that I hope people could take away, whether they’re just starting in real estate or they’ve been doing this for a while and they’re optimizing now, is ask yourself this question, what skill could you dedicate the time to mastering that will change the entire game for you? And for some of us, that’s deal hunting, deal analyzing. For some of us, it’s negotiation. It could be communication, it could be networking. There is a skill out there that you haven’t focused on that you could take the next couple of months and dedicate the time to that will impact the rest of your life as far as investing goes.

Dave:
I love this. Actually, in one of my books, I talk about this that there’s just no way you can feasibly learn every skill. There is just so many different things real estate investors need to do. Some of them, I’m sorry you’re going to be bad at. It’s such a broad, different type of thing. Some people are really analytical. Some people are great people person. Some people just love sales. There’s just so many different things. It’s really hard to be good at it. And the great thing about real estate investing is that you could specialize and trade people who are good at these other things. You can hire someone who’s handy if you’re not. You can work with a property manager. Deon’s a great property manager, but if that’s something that you’re not into, you could probably learn another skill and hire out being a property manager.
You don’t need to be good at everything to be a good investor. You need to be self-aware, I think, to know what you’re good at and what you could feasibly learn. And which things, like for me being handy, you should probably just quit because I’m never going to do maintenance on myself. I’ve tried that stuff and it never worked for me. It was a huge waste of time. I’m better at learning. For me, I think my skillsets are deal finding and deal analysis. That’s what I’m good at. Not a great property management, decent enough, but I trade for everything else. So Dan, what are some examples of these skills that … Well, what’s yours, first of all? What’s the thing you invested in and what are some of the skills you think are the best ROI for people to invest their time into?

Dion:
So the one skill that I’m not arrogant enough to say I’ve mastered, but I’ve focused on mastering is teaching. The highest form of learning is teaching. And when I look at every aspect of real estate investing or owning the property or managing the property, I think whenever I’m doing anything, talking with a tenant, doing the binder strategy or anything that involves a skill, networking, presenting, I think if I had to teach somebody how to do this, if I had to teach somebody how to screen tenants, how would I make the lesson outline?
How would I convey the information in at least three different audible, kinesthetic, whatever version they learn in? Doing that, it makes it sound when I talk like I’m super organized and I know what I’m doing. I’m not and I don’t. But when it comes to an aspect of real estate, if I’ve had to think, how would I teach this to somebody? I’m very organized and I know what I’m doing about that thing. And so that might not be everyone else’s thing they need to master about how to teach, but at least think if you had to explain what you’re doing to someone else, if you could articulate it, you’ll be better at doing it.

Dave:
Do you think it overlaps the things often if people are trying to figure out what skill they’re good at, is it always the thing that you love doing or have you found it’s also sometimes you’re just good at things that maybe you don’t like doing? I

Dion:
Think people benefit more from improving the things that they’re good at than working on the things that they’re terrible at. Like you said earlier, outsource the things you don’t like doing or you’re not good at doing. I had no idea until I started working at the CDL school that I liked teaching. I was a driver for years. I was an officer for eight years and I was in the Marines, but between that, I was a truck driver for over a decade. My first month at a CDL school as an instructor, I became 10 times the driver that I ever was.
I think I’ve translated that into real estate, but I have friends who aren’t teachers who are more successful than I am. And I mentioned them a couple times in this video, the lumberjack landlord, Millennial Mike and Michael Zuber, they’re not teachers. They worked in IT sales and they took skills from their job that they had to master for their work and they’ve used that in real estate. The lumberjack, self-managing over 1150 units while Burr’s and rehabs are going on, that is a project manager thing. That’s his skillset. That’s not me. I’m not the project manager. I didn’t like doing one bird, but he’s doing three or four at a time sometimes. And so everyone listening or watching, what are you doing for work that has required you to master certain skills?
Will those skills translate to investing? You might already have a type of superpower. And for me, I think it’s putting myself in the shoes of who I’m talking to. So it’s sometimes teaching, but sometimes the binder strategy comes from why are my tenants so stressed out about rent increases or thinking they’re going to get kicked out? How can I alleviate that? Put myself in their shoes, came up with a system that made it a lot easier to get the rents up, keep tenants, low turnover, happier tenants. But I think almost every job out there has some transferable skill that people are already mastering that they can bring to real estate.

Dave:
That’s awesome. I absolutely agree with that. I’m just resonating this while you’re talking about it because I get a deal analysis. I was a data analyst before as a podcast host. I’ve been doing this for a lot of my career. It’s something I feel comfortable doing. I went into that career because I enjoy doing it. I know people think that’s crazy that you like looking at spreadsheets, but I do. So there’s something out there for everyone. And I’ll also say, I also think there’s sometimes, it could be even a hobby that you like, something that you’ve gravitated towards over your career, even if it’s not your vocation and you don’t like your job, there’s probably something that you’ve learned or dedicated, committed time to, whether it’s a sport or an instrument or something that you have to learn, patience or attention to detail. These are great things to do.
So before we get out of here though, Dion, other than your skillset, mine, which is more analytical, are there other skills that you think have really high ROIs for people?

Dion:
I think people underestimate the value of communication, whether it’s with your tenants, a contractor, most people will call it negotiation, but it really comes down to communication. And there’s a whole rabbit hole on YouTube of NLP or negotiations. Chris Voss was at BiggerPockets in 2025 and he talked about different negotiation tactics and you might not have to get so technical or so detailed, but if you can learn the difference between parroting, mirroring, memory anchoring, some really simple things that can make your communication easier, easier to gain someone’s trust, easier to either get what you want or at least understand why you didn’t in negotiation. I think communication, I hear some people often say, the most money to an employee goes to the sales department, and that’s because they can communicate. In real estate, the money goes to the people who can communicate. If you can keep your tenants happy or your property manager happy, or you can communicate with your contractors.
And an example is I communicate with my lenders. And when I give this example, it sounds like a ton of work, but it’s really four or five emails. I’ll go to a big bank and I’ll say, “What do I qualify for? ” And I’ll get it in writing. When I go under contract with the property, I’ll go to all the different types of lenders, credit union, mortgage brokers, use Matt, the mortgage guy or somebody like that, and I’ll say, “Here’s what the bank is offering. Can you beat it? ” In a communication style that says, “I’m offering you business, if you can beat their business, and then if they can beat it, I take it back to the bank and say, if you can match this, you can keep my business.” And so it’s a really simple communication skill seeing from their perspective that they want the business, I want to give them the business, but they have to give me the best deal.
A small communication skill like that has saved me tens or probably hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years with the best interest rate, the lowest amount to buy down the rate. And that’s just one aspect. When you add that to contractors and handymen and tenants and the tenant who wants their ESA pets in or the tenant who has a noise complaint with their tenant next door, if you can master or get better at communication, even if you have a property manager, so many people use the excuse of, “I don’t like conflict, so I’m going to have a property … You’re going to spend more time managing your property. You’d probably spend more time with the property manager than I spend managing my tenants because you have to verify everything or I just have to do

Dave:
Everything.”

Dion:
But that communication skill, it pays off in every aspect of investing.

Dave:
Yeah. The thing I’ve always loved about Chris Voss, I’ve been a fan of his forever. And we were both at BPCon talking about it is the stuff he’s teaching, people hear this word negotiation and they think it’s like manipulation, but it’s not. The way I think of it at least is just emotional intelligence. You’re learning how to create mutual benefit to people, explaining to people what you need, what works for you, learning from them what’s important to them and trying to find an agreeable solution for both of you. I self-managed properties for 10 years. I now have property managers, knock on wood, I’ve never had to evict someone. I’ve always just been able to have conversations with people and work it out. And you still have to convey where your lines are as a property owner, where your lines are as a property manager. But if you’re good at this, you can figure out the right ways to build your business in a really mutually beneficial way.
You’re not negotiating trying to manipulate your bank, right? You’re just trying to find a loan product that works for both of you. And if you take that kind of approach to every relationship that you have in real estate investing, I totally agree with Dion. You are going to be better off in your entire portfolio if you learn that one skill.That’s a very good high ROI piece of advice there, Dion. Not surprised though. You are full of high ROI pieces of advice. So thank you so much for joining us here today, Dion. This was a lot of fun.

Dion:
I appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity to come on here anytime that I can. I really loved coming to BiggerPockets in Las Vegas, and we have this one coming up next year. I hope people get surrounded by people who are doing what they want to do because then you’re more likely to do it yourself.

Dave:
Absolutely. That’s what the BiggerPockets community is all about. So check out our website. There’s literally hundreds of thousands, millions of members who are there helping one another succeed in real estate investing. Check out all the live events that we’re doing over the next couple of years. Get into the same room as real estate investors. It is going to help you more than you can possibly know. On top of that, if you want to learn more from Dion, you can check out his YouTube channel at Dion Talks Financial Freedom, where he’s always giving out great advice. Thanks again, Dion.

Dion:
Thank you so much.

Dave:
And thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets Podcast. I’m Dave Meyer. We’ll see you next time.

 

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Feel trapped at a nine-to-five job that promises “success” but robs you of all joy, peace, and freedom? Today’s guest was in the same boat, but when everything came to a head, she traded it all for a new life that would allow her to pursue actual financial freedom—with rental properties!

Welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie podcast! Casey Nguyen had (almost) everything. She and her husband were making seven figures and owned a beautiful home in the Bay Area, but they were working around the clock—and they were miserable. So, when they had reached their breaking point, they did what most wouldn’t: they moved to a lower cost-of-living area and started investing in real estate.

Casey has since built and scaled her real estate portfolio to seven properties across Texas, North Carolina, Ohio, and their new home state of Kentucky, where they have recently launched an Airbnb that will bring in over $50,000 this year. With each day, Casey is one step closer to her ultimate goal: more time with her family, the flexibility to travel the world, and more than enough money to fuel it.

Ashley:
Our guest today built herself up to seven figures in annual income, but one night in her living room, she broke down crying, realizing success had trapped her instead of freeing her. From six figure commissions to dog sitting for survival, today’s guest took some fearless swings that completely changed her family’s life. And today we might find out that chasing more money isn’t always the answer. This is The Real Estate Rookie Podcast. I’m Ashley Kehr.

Tony:
And I’m Tony J. Robinson. And with that, let’s give a big warm welcome to Casey. Casey, thanks so much for joining us today.

Casey:
Thanks for having me.

Ashley:
Now, Casey, you and your husband were making over $1 million a year. I think everyone’s first question is how?

Casey:
Well, I am still, but we were living in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley to be exact. We’re very close to Apple, Google and all. And my husband is an engineer. I’m myself a real estate agent. And as you know, in the Bay Area in San Jose, a home could easily cost 1.5 to $2 million. And I was one of the top producer. So I probably bring in … The minimum would be 50,000. And the max, I believe I made $170,000 a month.

Ashley:
Yeah. Wow. That’s incredible.

Casey:
But I work twenty four seven.

Tony:
Yeah. Well, that’s what I was going to ask Casey. I mean, because there’s a lot of folks in our audience who either are currently agents, but maybe even more so who are thinking about maybe transitioning to be an agent as they get into the world of real estate investing. What do you think it was, aside from being in a market that’s maybe more expensive, because there are plenty of agents in the Bay Area who are not making nearly as much as you. What do you think you did differently that allowed you to really achieve that level of financial success?

Casey:
I honestly think it’s mindset. Your mind is really powerful. You can do whatever you want to do if you can actually think about it first in your mind. So before I started real estate, it was difficult. The first year I made nothing, zero. And so I told my husband, something got to change. I hire a coach and I start to get into the room with people that was doing better than me, masterminding. And that’s how I get to the production that I was doing before.

Ashley:
So you’ve done everything that most rookies are chasing. You’ve got thing come, you’ve got the homes, travel. What signs did you miss that told you this actually wasn’t sustainable?

Casey:
I think I was working twenty four seven. And I remember COVID time because we were living in a condo. It was our start of home. It’s like a thousand square foot. And we have a designer come to kind of redesign a condo so that it’d make it livable during COVID. So she turned our living room into our office. So my husband’s desk and my dad was facing one another. And I remember it was 10:30 PM at night. I was fully closed. He was actually in the meeting. I actually just got out of the meeting and I looked at him and I said, “This is terrible. This is not the life I want to live. We have a lot of money and we don’t even have time to spend it. ” And it’s funny because my husband and I have been together for 13 years. When we first got together, we had $4,000 in the bank come by and we were so happy and we were traveling to Hawaii, we were traveling to Vietnam.
So it’s pretty interesting that the more money you have, it doesn’t really bring you more happiness. You just have a lot of responsibility and a new sets of problems, I would say.

Ashley:
I was just going to look up, what’s that one song? It’s by a country singer, but money can’t buy you happiness, but it can buy you a boat.

Tony:
I haven’t heard that one before. Of course you haven’t,

Speaker 4:
Tony.

Tony:
Or there’s the other saying it’s like money won’t buy me happiness, but it’s okay. I’ll cry in my Ferrari. I’ve heard that one. But for you, Casey, I mean, would you say that you were burned out?

Casey:
Completely. Yeah, 100%. And I think I didn’t have a direction because I was working nine to five and obviously everything on social media or people always say, “Quit United Five so that you can be an entrepreneur and have your own schedule.” But then I went from nine to five to twenty

Ashley:
Four seven. So when you had this realization of like, “I don’t want to do this. I’m not happy. We have enough money.” What were the first steps that you took? Did you take action the next day to change your life or what did that progression kind of look like where you made this shift?

Casey:
Pretty much immediately. So I’m the type of person that when I set my mind onto something, I would do it right away. And I really don’t care what you say or if you tell me that I’m going to fail, I just really listen to my gut. So I wanted to invest in real estate with all these extra money that we have because I honestly don’t know anything about stock and my husband invests our money in stock, but the return, he showed me the return every year and it’s really sad.

Tony:
I just want to add to that too, Casey, because a lot of people talk about the stock market. It averages whatever, eight to 12% over the last 50 years. And again, someone go validate this because I haven’t done my homework on this, but it’s something that was just interesting. But he was like, even though the average stock market return is between eight and 12%, it’s never actually hit that number in a single year. It’s either crazy crushing it or really, really bad. And those extremes just kind of average out to that eight to 12%. So even when folks talk about investing in the stock market, it’s not this steady kind of upward climb. It really is kind of jagged up and down that you’ve got to really zoom out over the long term to see those returns average out.

Casey:
100%. And I think I’m just really impatient because you hear about compound interest, so you have to leave it for like 20, 30, I don’t know, until you did to see the return. And I’m just not like, I got to see it now.

Tony:
Now, during your journey, Casey, I know you unfortunately experienced a miscarriage and you mentioned that as really a turning point for you, especially with all these other feelings you were having about being burned out. How did that loss change really what mattered to you about work and about wealth?

Casey:
I’m sorry, I’m just a little emotional.

Tony:
No, it’s okay. Take your time.

Casey:
So my son is actually almost one and a half downstairs playing with my mom. And so I was working a lot. We were trying to have a baby and I think it would just stress. So I lost the baby and I’m the type of agent where I do everything for my clients. I go out of my way to take care of my clients and my friends. So when I had a miscarriage, it was just really lonely because I was just pretty much just alone. And I was thinking, I don’t know what is the point of doing all of these to make sure everybody happy, everybody healthy and taken care of, but I can’t even take care of myself.
And so that’s really the turning point for me to change a lifestyle and actually move out of the Bay Area. And I’m so glad that we did. So now we live in Lexington, Kentucky. And I know Tony, you live in Los Angeles area and people in California just live in their little bubble. I used to be, live in my little bubble that we have the best weather, best food, diversity, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And everywhere else in the world or everywhere else in the US are just bad, bad weather. But Lexington, Kentucky is very beautiful. People are so nice and we’re very, very happy.

Ashley:
I appreciate you sharing that with us because I think it is so important for someone who’s listening to understand that you don’t have to wait till you get to that point, till that devastation. You have the choice to change your life now before something devastating happens to you like that or your turning point. And I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing that on the podcast because that is something very, very hard and difficult to speak about and to share. So I really appreciate that and hopes that somebody listening and it could be any kind of event or something that could happen to them, but when you’re working so hard and you’re filled with all that stress and you’re taking care of everyone else besides yourself, if you’re that person right now listening, don’t get to that breaking point. Start today making those changes in your life to really be healthy, happy, and build the life that you actually want, not what you’re building for everyone else.

Tony:
I couldn’t agree more. And to Ashley’s point, Casey, thank you for being vulnerable about that moment in your life. My wife and I experienced a miscarriage before our first daughter was born, so we know how difficult of an experience that can be, but I think to use that moment as a wake up call for you to kind of reassess your life and point you in the direction and put you on the trajectory that allowed not only your financial goals to be fulfilled, but also the rest of your life, right? Finding that balance to be fulfilled is important. You talked about moving from California to Kentucky. How did that decision to kind of pack everything up, leave the Bay Area, how did that change, I guess really everything for you? Were you fearful leaving California? Why Kentucky of all the places to go? I guess so many questions.
Yeah. So I guess first, why Kentucky? Why did you decide to go there first?

Casey:
So my husband was from Kentucky. So he grew up in Kentucky, Central Kentucky, and he went to UK, University of Kentucky. And he told me a little bit about a city. So I never visit Lexington, Kentucky prior to moving here. So it’s like a total shock.

Speaker 4:
Oh, wow.

Casey:
Yeah. Yeah. So that’s to show you, when I said I’m going to do something, I’m going to do something. Does not matter. So a couple things about University of Kentucky, they have two sport teams. So they have a football and a basketball. So people would travel and they have students from all over the world. So people would travel here to see the team play. So I was thinking, oh, it’s going to be great for Airbnb. It comes as a surprise for me that they have so many hospitals here in downtown Lexington. So it’s really good for midterm rental as well. And then there’s an area about an hour from us called the Red River Gorge, and it’s where people go for a kayak, rock climbing. And we actually just bought our Airbnb there and setting it up.

Tony:
When I think about packing up my life and moving clear across the country, there’s probably a few things that are like running through my mind. Was there any moment of hesitation for you or was there anything that you were fearful of doing this? And the reason why I ask Casey is because, hey, we’ve interviewed quite a few folks who have done something similar where they said, “Hey, I’m going to move because I want a better quality of life. I’m going to move because I want to be able to save more money. I’m moving because of there’s this goal I want to achieve.” And each of them kind of had their own hesitations or fears around that. So I’m curious for you specifically, was there anything that you were afraid of taking this leap and packing up and moving across the country?

Casey:
Everything. We cry. I cry every single day prior to the move. I mean, prior to selling our home in California. After we sold it, we actually sold it for a really good price so I was pretty happy. But moving away from California, leaving my friends and the career that I have there, to me and to my husband, it’s like we’re failing. And to my husband especially, he moved away from Kentucky to go to California so that he can get this fancy job and now moving back, he feel like he was failing in California. So that was a mindset going into this whole process, but I know that the direction that we’re going, we’re going to burn all of our savings, we’re probably going to have to work. I probably going to have to work twenty four seven, never going to get to see my son, and that wasn’t the life that I want to live.

Ashley:
So at what point did you make the decision to downsize and actually sell your home? When did those steps kind of begin to take shape as to, did you list the house first? Did you find a house in Lexington?

Casey:
Yeah. So Jen, I would say around January of 2024, that’s when we decide, okay, we’re going to sell our home. As a real estate agent, I’m very aware of the market. And then when I pick our home, the area is an up and coming area. So the price have increased so much in two years. We were very lucky. We bought the home when the market was down and that is the beautiful thing about the Bay Area. The market just go up and down. If you time it right, you can cash out for a lot of money. So yeah.

Ashley:
We have to take a quick ad break, but when we come back, we’re going to talk about dog sitting to actually be in survival mode during that season in your life and how it actually ended up outperforming one of your rental properties. I want to dig into that next because that’s a hack most listeners have never even considered. We’ll be right back. Okay. So you mentioned this creative strategy that kept your family afloat when everything slowed down. So let’s talk about how you turned dog sitting, something most people overlook into a legitimate income stream. So walk us back to that first listing. What made you even decide to try dog sitting and how much did you actually make that first month?

Casey:
So we had a little dog. He’s 10 right now. So when he was little, we wanted him to have companion, but we didn’t want to have more dogs. So we thought, oh, we’re just going to do dog sitting so we have friends. So we enlisted our home or apartment at the time on an app called Rover and that’s how you get … It kind of like Airbnb for dog pretty much. You could do boarding or like daycare. And so we started about 10 years ago. In the beginning, we didn’t make a lot. In 2024, when my mom came to live with us and I thought, “We’re going to take more dogs.” And someday we have six to seven dogs, but all the tiny little dogs, we have a very big home, very big backyard, so everything was very easy. And the most that we make from dog sitting was $6,000 in one month.
And then that year, we actually make about $53,000. I’m laughing because I listen to you guys’ podcast every week when I go to the gym. And I remember in one of the episode, Tony was answering a question of this couple. They wanted to house hack, but they was worried about the roommate situation. They didn’t have a good experience. And I’m like, “Dog sitting. You should buy a house and dog sit.” And so I keep hearing the same question and I’m like, “I have to go on a podcast and tell people to dog

Ashley:
Sit.” What a way to generate income off of your property.

Tony:
Yeah. I don’t know if we’ve ever interviewed someone on the podcast who’s made that much money from dog sitting. I guess one clarifying question, Casey, was this at your home in Kentucky or was this still back in the Bay Area?

Casey:
So both. So in the Bay Area, we did that for all the homes that we were living in, all the apartments- But

Tony:
The 6K, that was in Kentucky?

Casey:
The 6,000 was in California because the race was higher there. In Kentucky, we just started, we moved here in November last year, and then I opened the calendar right away. And I think the most that we make is probably like $1,500 a month.

Tony:
So maybe a higher demand and a higher cost of living area to be able to hit those figures. But for all those folks who were living in a place like California, New York named the high cost of living place, sounds like dog sitting could potentially be a good way to generate some extra income. I guess, were you surprised? I mean, because 50 grand a year, that’s more than most rentals are going to make. Were you surprised by that amount at all, Casey, or was that …

Casey:
Yeah, it’s so funny because back in California, every month I would do our accounting and I text my husband, I was like, “Guess how much we make this month from dog sitting?” And he would be like, “$2,000.” And I’m like, “No, $5,500.”

Ashley:
Okay. So let’s just give the overall business picture of this. So the Rover website, do you need to … My mind always goes to insurance. Darryl will pitch me all these business ideas and I’ll be like, “Well, there’s a lot of liability. You’ll need to get insurance, which is going to be expenses because this could have, that could have. ” And so is that like Airbnb where you get insurance through the app or is that something you had to get on your own? Do you need to add coverage onto your homeowner’s policy? Are you providing the food, things like that, or people bring their own? What are your actual business expenses that are coming out of your pocket each month for this?

Casey:
So let’s say when you send your … It’s very similar to with daycare when you send your … Ashley, I know you have two sons.

Speaker 4:
I have a goat. Oh, my goal. I thought you were talking about daycare. I have a goat. When you send- My ghost doesn’t go to daycare. Grandma comes here to take care of the goats, right? When you send them

Casey:
To daycare, you pack their food, you pack their clothes or whatever. Same thing with the dogs. So Rover actually cover all the insurance, so you don’t have to get extra insurance. All you need to do, it’s very easy actually. And I am a little bit scared to bore my dog because I don’t know if they screen everybody. They said they do. So you have to send in your ID and they do do a background check on you. I never have any accident with any of my dog, knock on wood. The dog parents would bring all the supplies like beds, food, anything.

Ashley:
My son, he wants a puppy for Christmas and I’m thinking this is the perfect opportunity. Let’s sign up for this. We’re going to bring in the dogs. You take care of them. You show me responsibility and you can get a puppy.

Tony:
And then you can use that money to pay for the dog, Ash.

Ashley:
My God, I’ve been looking at prices as a dog. Oh my God. The last time I bought a dog when I was like 18, I brought it home to my parents’ house and my dad was ready to murder me, but it was like $200 maybe for my dog. And it’s like, I need $2,000 at least to buy a dog. Oh my God.

Tony:
Casey, what comes to mind for me, because we invest a lot in the short-term mental space. And I think about dealing with the guests and for you, I guess it would be like the- The

Casey:
Dogs.

Tony:
… the pet owners or yeah, the dogs too, right? I guess both of those, right? You’ve got both sides. Have you found it difficult to manage the actual owners? Because like you said, this is almost more like a daycare where they’re dropping off someone that they love. Have you found it difficult to interact and deal with the pet owners?

Casey:
For me, no. So with Rover, they have a process. Before you accept any dog, you can do a meet and greet. So the parents would bring the dog to my home to meet with me and I would see if that dog is nice, is it potty training, is it good with environment? And now I have a son. It has to be good with my babies too. And then it’s also an opportunity for me to kind of interact with that owner. If they seem just difficult, I wouldn’t accept a dog at all just because I know that a road is going to be more problem, but most of 90% of them, they’re really easygoing. They just want somebody love their dogs and I’m genuinely love dog. My dream is to have a facility where I can help homeless dogs, but yeah.

Tony:
Do you get a lot of repeat guests or repeat customers in this space?

Casey:
Yeah. My rebooking rates, I would say very high. So when a dog parents leave the dogs with me, they don’t go anywhere else.

Ashley:
How did this pivot actually change your mindset moving almost all the way across the country? How did this change your mindset about what financial creativity it looks like?

Casey:
So I think there’s a lot of ways to make money. And if you just want to make money … I’m an immigrant. I came from Vietnam and I think this country is pretty amazing. If you want to make money, there’s like 101 ways that you can do it, but if you want to make money, live a healthy lifestyle, be happy, and you can see your family every day, that’s very difficult. So moving to Kentucky, I know for sure my goal is my number one priority is to take care of my son. And the real estate portfolio that we have is really help paying for our mortgage, a little bit of our living expenses and selling our home in California really help us with that money to look for opportunities to invest in either Airbnb, midterm rental, or maybe like multiple units like duplex, fullplex, to get more income.

Ashley:
How much was the amount that you ended up profiting off of the sale of your house in California?

Casey:
Are you ready? Hold it onto my seat. So we bought it in September 2022 and we sold it in September 2024. And you have to stay in … Yeah, two years. You have to stay in the home for two years for your primary residence so that you don’t have to pay capital gain. We net $460,000 from the sale.

Ashley:
Two years and tax free.

Tony:
That is amazing.

Ashley:
Yeah. And so much on the podcast, we talk about not investing or moving. We just did a question on Rookie Reply about moving to a lower cost of living area and getting a house hacked there or whatever. But there’s also opportunity in the more expensive markets too, because you are oftentimes going to have a lot more equity buildup just because you’re buying at a larger amount.

Casey:
100%.

Ashley:
That’s awesome. Congratulations. Thank you.

Tony:
Casey, one follow-up question for me because you mentioned this as you were answering the last question, but you said you immigrated here from Vietnam. How old were you when you immigrated?

Casey:
17.

Tony:
17. Wow. So most of your young life, you spent living in Vietnam and came here right before you were a legal adult, and you were able to build yourself up to making over a million dollars in annual income. And I just think that it’s such an inspiring story. We interviewed Sebastian Rodriguez on episode 626, and I can’t remember what country he immigrated from, but when he came here, he literally knew no one. There was at one point he slept in his car and he was able to build up a really big amount of cash flow from his real estate business from just hustling. And the reason why I highlight that is because there are so many people who are listening right now who started off in such an easier position and still haven’t taken the action that there’s literally no excuse when there are folks like you, Casey, who have come over here, built a life, built that income and built the business, and it’s just about taking action.
So I just want to give you credit because it’s an amazing story and even more so given the fact you didn’t even come to America until you were almost 18 years old.

Ashley:
So I want to go over your portfolio that you’ve built. So what rentals, what properties do you have right now in your current portfolio?

Casey:
So we have two in Austin’s. One, it’s a long-term rental. The other one, we’re rented by the room. We have two in North Carolina, Raleigh area. We have a four unit in Palmer Heights, Ohio, and one unit in the building next door is a very interesting situation. We bought all five. And then we have our primary home and our Airbnb in the Red River Gorge.

Ashley:
And congratulations on building that impressive portfolio. And you had slightly mentioned that a lot of the income from these properties was like covering your current mortgage and other expenses for you. How has work shifted for you and your husband? Are you still selling real estate in Kentucky? Are you just managing your properties? What has both of your careers kind of shifted since you’ve made this move?

Casey:
Yeah. So my husband, we’re very lucky. My husband got to still work at the same company in the Bay Area. He has to go to California once a month. I’m still selling in California. I have a team there. I do have listing on the market, so it’s very easy. I just signed a listing, do the negotiation. My team will clean, stage, and do everything else.

Ashley:
Wow. So like all the showings and everything for you to not even have to be there?

Casey:
Yeah. All the showing I can pay agents per show to show, but usually I only work with listing because with buyers, you have to be there. You have to build a connection. It’s really hard to do that over the phone. I find that a little bit difficult when I moved to Lexington, Kentucky. And then I just got my license here in Lexington, Kentucky. I don’t know if I want to sell real estate again. I mean, it’s a really easy job to make good income, but I just don’t have the drive to do that anymore. I don’t know.

Ashley:
And you have the team already built too. If you wanted it to be the same model, you’d have to go and build a team from scratch here too.

Casey:
Right. Yeah. So I’m still thinking about it. I do have the license, but I really want to focus in real estate investing for now.

Ashley:
Well, that’s awesome. Congratulations on outsourcing what seems like 90% of your job to having other team members do it. That’s great.

Tony:
Okay. So we got to bring you back for two separate episodes. One, just to do a deep dive into dog sitting. And the second one is like, how do you automate your real estate agent business so you can do it from halfway across the country because both of those are incredible stories.

Ashley:
Okay. So you said earlier that all of this, the burnout, the reset, even the dog setting set you up for a much bigger move. Leaving California entirely. When we come back, I want to unpack what it took to sell the Bay Area home, pocket nearly half that million dollars tax free, and then start fresh in Kentucky. We’ll be right back. Before the break, you teased the big leap of moving to Kentucky, making that $460,000 gain off of your house in the Bay Area. But let’s go into that move into Kentucky and you actually saw an opportunity in one of these markets, the Red River Gorge to buy your investment property. So tell us about this market.

Casey:
So this market is pretty interesting. It’s an area where people go to do all the outdoorsy. And it’s funny because I’m not an outdoorsy. You can pay me money to sleep on the floor. I’ll pay you money so I can go inside. So we actually had a neighbor. So we move into our neighborhood and are across the street neighbor. My husband came home one day and he was like, “I met the neighbor. Guess what he does?” I said, “I don’t know. He does Airbnb.” And my mind just like …

Speaker 4:
Let’s go over

Ashley:
Right now and talk to him.

Casey:
Exactly. Everything happens for a reason. And so we chat with the guy and it’s really fun Tony, we did no research. And Tony, this is probably going to scare you. We did zero research before we buy this property in Red River Gorge, simply because we trusted the neighbor. He said it’s doing really good. The number is great. And we said, okay, we found our property, bought it. Now we’re getting it ready. So everything just happened.

Tony:
I’m glad it worked out for you guys. And I definitely want to get into a little bit about that property because I know it was a cool project for you guys. But yeah, I think it does make me a little bit nervous because I definitely don’t want people to follow in your footsteps because there maybe is a chance that the neighbor maybe gives some bad advice. But I guess what did he share with you that made you guys feel so confident? I think that’s really what I want to know.

Casey:
Just numbers, the potential of how much it going to make. And then I think two things about Lexington, the Red River Gorge and UK is like, it’s very popular here. Everybody that you talk to, they would talk about UK and they would talk about Red River Gorge. So it’s kind of like a destination where the local goes already. It’s really popular. The second thing is we actually visited. We went there for the weekend. It was pouring rain. So we didn’t do anything literally just stay in our Airbnb. But when I was there, I really do see a lot of potential. And I think for the next five to 10 years, it’s going to grow so big.

Tony:
Casey, the property that you actually end up purchasing, tell us a little bit about that. How big was it? What was your purchase price? Did you have a sense of what the revenue might be before you bought it? And if so, did those numbers match up? Just walk us through that deal a little bit.

Casey:
I am not a number person. You’re asking the wrong person. Did I look at the revenue? No, I didn’t do any numbers at all. The property is a two bedroom, two bath condo sitting on a one acreage lot and it’s surrounded by tree. It’s really, really beautiful. So somebody bought it, remodel it. And if you ever go to the Red River Gorge, you’ll see they remodel everything black. And they pick … I’m sorry, but the ugliest appliances, the ugliest color. I don’t know why. Everybody has the same thing. And so this property was newly renovated and it needs a lot of work. So I see the potential. We bought it. We kind of fixed it. This morning I listened to a podcast and Tony, you literally nailed it in the head. You said you have to account for the remodel and what is that? Furnishing cost, $30 per square foot.
And I did the calculation. I’m like, “Oh my God, he’s so right.” And we didn’t account any of that. So yeah, so we’re getting hot tub, cold plunge, sauna, and kind of make the property nicer for the audience.

Tony:
It is something that we see a lot where folks get maybe enamored with the property and like the amount of revenue that it can do, but then they only focus on the acquisition cost, which is your down payment closing costs. And they forget about like, “Hey, we’ve actually got to put stuff into it and we definitely don’t want to want to skip there.” You said that you think this area is going to grow a bit over the next five years. What are you specifically seeing, Casey, that leads you to believe that?

Casey:
So the property itself is 350,000 that we bought. We put down 20% and it’s going to bring in around 50 to $60,000 a year in revenue. So what I see is the area is still a little bit underdeveloped. A lot of people are buying and building these newer, more desirable Airbnbs, and then they’re putting a lot of shoppings in the area. So it’s had the potential to grow like Ganford.

Ashley:
Okay. Casey, before we started recording, one of the things you had said that has stuck with me, don’t be afraid to change. And you’ve really gone through an incredible amount of change yourself. So what does freedom mean to you now that you have completely shifted and pivoted your life and how do you define success today?

Casey:
So when I first started investing in real estate, my goal, to be honest with you, is to not work anymore, just move to, I don’t know, Southeast Asia, be on the beach and just hang out every day. That’s no longer the goal because I think if you live a life with no purpose, it’s just really boring. Having my son is really give me a new purpose as up to spending a lot of time with the family, take him, travel the world. So my ideal of success is to just get to spend time with my family, go on vacation, working in a really meaningful field that would give you a sense of purpose.

Ashley:
Well, Casey, thank you so much for sharing your story today with us and your lessons learned. And also congratulations on the portfolio and also being brave enough, having that courage to completely pivot in your life and what you’re working for. So where can people reach out to you and find out more information?

Casey:
You can follow me on Instagram. I don’t really go on there anymore, but it’s @KCZNwyn.

Ashley:
Thank you guys so much for listening today. I’m Ashley. He’s Tony and was you guys on the next episode of Real Estate, Ricky.

 

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America’s tipping point for small investors might come not from a sudden drop in interest rates or a deluge of new construction, but from something far simpler: For the first time in many years, more homeowners carry mortgage rates at or above 6% than enjoy 3% loans.

It marks a shift that will finally loosen the “rate-lock” grip on the housing market, which has kept potential sellers from listing their homes for fear of losing their low rate. The lack of inventory, fueled by too few listings, has been one of the biggest hurdles that investors and flippers have had to overcome since the Federal Reserve raised interest rates after the pandemic.

The all-important shift from lower to higher loan rates among mortgage holders happened at the tail end of 2025, according to MarketWatch, as an increasing number of buyers bit the bullet and purchased homes at 6%+ interest rates, leaving fewer homeowners with sub-3% interest rates originated during 2020-2021.

With homeowners forced to surrender or walk away from their sub-3% loans, the likelihood of an influx of properties onto the market and more opportunities for investors has become far greater than in recent years.

A Numbers Game

America is still chronically undersupplied with housing, according to Goldman Sachs research, which puts the shortfall at about 4 million homes beyond normal construction. While President Trump has recently made efforts to stimulate the real estate market through a ban on institutional investors buying single-family homes and by tasking Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac with buying $200 billion in mortgage-backed securities, neither initiative addressed the real issue in the housing market: supply. The end of the rate-lock effect could significantly change that dynamic.

Affordable Markets Plus Increased Supply Equal More Deals

The lapse in the rate lock stranglehold on inventory supply is likely to have its most profound effect on investors in generally lower-priced markets, where affordability and cash flow come into play.  

This shows in the data. States with modest home values, such as Mississippi, Oklahoma, and West Virginia, now have the greatest proportion of homeowners willing to take on 6%-plus mortgages, reflecting lower monthly payments and more flexibility for owners who wish to move or trade up. Mississippi’s average home value of $186,000, according to Zillow, lowered the state’s homeownership rate because homeowners took out mortgages at 6% or higher.

Robert Dietz, National Association of Home Builders chief economist, told NAR Realtor News:

“One of the trends we’re keeping a close eye on for 2026 is geography. We’ve seen new-home markets slow down in previously hot markets like Texas and Florida, in part because of some limited cyclical overbuilding and the fact that mortgage rates remained above 6% in 2025. But there are also pockets of strength emerging, particularly in the Midwest. Markets like Columbus, Ohio; Indianapolis; and Kansas City—areas that have long been more affordable and are close to major universities—are showing outsized growth.”

The End of the Rate-Lock Era Needs to Coincide With More Inventory

While ending the rate-lock era may bring more houses to market, it won’t increase overall inventory in the U.S. housing market, which needs to increase as rates come down and buyers feel more comfortable about the economy, to truly have a meaningful effect on affordability. That said, a loosening market is a prime opportunity for investors with cash to get involved on the first floor, anticipating an increased thaw.

Here are some steps that investors can take now.

1. Don’t wait for “cheap money.” It may never come. 

Underwrite today’s rates for 5.75% to 6.5% in long-term debt. Stress-test deals at Prime + 1% to ensure resilience. Let the past go and focus on cash flow or near-neutral assets rather than appreciation, so you can hold the asset long term, when appreciation will eventually kick in.

2. Target markets where people are moving

Being a landlord in a low-demand market is not a good move. By targeting affordable markets where people are also moving, such as secondary and tertiary markets in the Midwest and parts of the South, you can ensure both rental demand and either cash flow or, at worst, an investment that pays for itself, allowing you to benefit from tax benefits, appreciation, and tenant paydown. Targeting markets with rising inventory but flat pricing will give you room to negotiate.

3. Negotiate like it’s 2018

With more sellers than buyers in many markets, negotiating a good deal when you buy rather than when you sell is paramount to making cash flow work. This means:

  • Ask for seller credits toward rate buydowns or repairs.
  • Price reductions according to inspection findings.
  • Request longer due diligence periods to conduct inspections and develop negotiation strategies.

4. Prioritize motivated sellers who own free and clear

Almost 40% of U.S. homeowners do not have a mortgage—i.e., they own their properties free and clear. This means they are not governed by Fed policy. Many of these owners may be looking to sell due to downsizing, aging out of homeownership responsibilities, burnout, or depreciation regulations. However, many may be interested in offsetting a big tax bill by holding the note and generating a monthly income without the hassle of managing a property.

Prepare an outreach strategy that includes:

  • Offer simplicity and certainty, not top-dollar pricing.
  • Offer clean closings and flexible move-out terms.
  • Be a solution provider, not a bidder.

5. A turnaround in the housing market will be gradual, so get your financing in place now

  • Get your credit in the best shape possible.
  • Firm up relationships with credit unions and community banks.
  • Keep liquidity for repairs and concessions.

6. Remember that the market will reward incremental accumulation, not trophy buys

  • Look for small multifamily buys that maximize cash flow, mitigate risk, and provide financing flexibility.
  • Seek out value-add deals that favor light cosmetic upgrades rather than major rehabs.

Final Thoughts

The end of the rate-lock era signals a return to a functioning real estate market—not a sub-3% bonanza. Thus, careful moves that leverage the fine margins of a gradually shifting market are the way to proceed, gradually accruing assets while always protecting the potential downside. 

Don’t be sold on the hype that tends to accompany any real estate momentum. We are way off bidding war terrain, so negotiate carefully with a long-term 6%+ interest rate in mind and be prepared to walk away if the numbers don’t work.



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