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The golden age of real estate investing is over, and there’s a good chance it isn’t coming back (for a while, at least). We have to admit it—real estate deals aren’t nearly as good as they were in the 2010s. But here’s the thing…we’re still buying real estate. Even with low affordability, high interest rates, and still high home prices, real estate still makes much more sense as an investment than your other options. We can prove it, and we’re doing it in today’s episode.

You know your crypto-buying uncle who’s always predicting a housing crash? Send him this episode. Dave presents the proof, backed by decades of data, showing that real estate remains one of the best risk-adjusted returns of any investment you can buy today.

And with sellers significantly outnumbering buyers and home prices starting to correct, this could be one of the best times to buy before demand boomerangs back and supply dwindles. Dave is buying right now, after reviewing all the data. So, if the numbers make sense for him, what’s holding you back?

Dave Meyer:
Real estate is harder than it used to be, but you know what? I honestly do not care. Even though deals are harder to find, cashflow, prospects are lower and interest rates are higher, I still don’t care because investing whether in real estate or some other asset class is not about comparing today’s potential to some bygone era. It’s about making the best decisions with your money given the opportunities available to you today. So in this episode, I’m going to make my case to you for why waiting for some magical era of amazing returns and low risk, which will likely never come, is not the right move and how you should instead be thinking about investing.
Hey everyone, it’s Dave Meyer. I’m the head of real estate investing at BiggerPockets and I’ve been an active real estate investor for more than 15 years and right now, given current market conditions, we’re seeing a lot of people sit on the sidelines. I’ll be honest, I’m not going to say that I don’t get it because I recognize that real estate is harder right now, deals are harder, but you know what? It really doesn’t bother me at the end of the day. I mean, of course I wish that conditions were amazing again, but I’m going to show you today why I think that’s a dangerous mental trap you can find yourself in if you start going down that road. And instead, I think I can help you all frame the challenges and opportunities in real estate as a productive thing. I’m going to show you that there is an upside to everything that’s going on in the market right now and we’re going to do that in today’s episode.
For those of you who are watching on YouTube, I’m going to be pulling out the whiteboard and drawing a little bit, talking a little bit about different errors of real estate investing. But don’t worry if you’re listening on audio, I’m going to be describing everything I’m doing at the same time and you won’t lose out on anything. Before we get into the show, I wanted to let you know about something really fun Henry and I are doing that I am really excited about. We are taking BiggerPockets on the road this summer and we’ll be driving around the Midwest to multiple different markets, looking for deals, meeting with agents, talking to the BiggerPockets community, attending meetups. It’s going to be a great time. We’re calling it the Cashflow Roadshow and it’s happening this July from July 14th to 18th across three different markets in the Midwest. If you live in either the Chicago or Indianapolis area, we’re going to be doing free meetups in those areas.
The one in Chicago is on July 15th, the one in Indianapolis is the next night on July 16th. Henry and I are going to be there. We’re going to be doing presentations, we’re going to be talking about local market dynamics, there’s going to be great networking and we even have a few cool surprises planned as well. So if you live in one of those cities, you want to hang out with us, get into the BiggerPockets community in real life, go to biggerpockets.com/roadshow, learn more. And these events, they are free, but I should call out that you do have to RSVP because there are limits to the venues and they will sell out. So make sure to go to biggerpockets.com/roadshow and reserve your spot today. Alright, we’re going to start this episode and just talk a little bit about the different eras of real estate investing because as you probably know, real estate investing is very cyclical and there are different time periods, there are times of recession, there are times of expansion, there are good times, there are bad times, and obviously over the course of decades or centuries, the US housing market goes through every kind of era.
So I want to zoom out a little bit today and first talk about the era that I think we’ve exited in 2023. It sort of ended, it started at the end of the financial crisis or the great recession during the recovery that happened from that event. So let’s call it 2009 to 2010 to 2023. If you’re watching this on YouTube, you’ll see that I’m showing a chart here of US housing affordability. This is basically how easy it is for the average American to go out and buy the average priced home in the country. And this is a really useful metric as you imagine both for investors and for homeowners because it’s a good lead indicator for how many homes are going to be bought and sold during a period of time if it’s relatively affordable to buy homes. Yeah, a lot of people are going to go out and do it if it’s relatively unaffordable.
We’re going to see transaction volume, basically the number of home sale start to taper off. And what you see when you look at this chart and when you just consider affordability in the housing market in general, what you see is that the time from 2010 to 2023, that was the unusual time. We have entered a period recently where yes, we have unusually low affordability, we’re close to 35 or 40 year lows, but we just exited an unusually good time for affordability. So the chart I’m looking at, the higher the number, the more affordable things are, and basically this index went up to over 200 that’s significantly higher than the long-term average from 2010 to 2015. But even in the period from 2015 to 2020, when as an investor myself it felt like things were getting more expensive again, that was actually still historically affordable housing market.
And so I think what’s going on a lot in real estate is that we have gone from a historical period of great affordability to historically bad affordability and that difference has really changed people’s perception of real estate as an investment overall. But my argument as I’m going to sort of unfold over the next couple of minutes and throughout this episode is that although there are challenges with affordability, that is absolutely true. You don’t need the unusually good affordability that we saw in the 2010s to come back in order for real estate to be good again because in the 1990s it wasn’t that affordable and real estate was still a good investment or the eighties or the seventies or almost any other decade before that. So I think we need to sort of as a real estate investing community reset our expectations a little bit and not assume that we are going to be going back to the period that we had from 2010 to 2023.
That was great. It really was an easy and good time to be a real estate investor and we have entered a more challenging period. But as I said at the top, and as I’m going to go through a lot in this episode that is not honestly all that relevant. It really doesn’t matter at the end of the day to me as an investor, whether the returns I can get on real estate today are better than the returns I could get in 2015, they’re probably not. And as I said at the top, I don’t care because I still believe that real estate investing is a better investment than anything else I can do with my money as of today. And that is the thing that you need to be thinking about. The consideration that every investor makes, whether you’re a stock investor, a crypto investor, a real estate investor, whatever it is, the calculation you need to be doing in your head is what asset class, what specific investment can move me closer to my personal financial goals?
And for me, that is predominantly real estate. I do invest in some other things to hedge, but my whole point that I’m going to be talking about today is whether you agree with me that real estate is great right now or not, I really want you to take home the idea that it doesn’t matter what real estate’s doing today versus 10 years ago. What matters is how real estate investing compares to the other options you actually have. Because like it or not, you do not have the option to go back to 2015 and get those returns. I’m sorry, that is not coming back. And so you really need to make the decision about what you’re going to do with your time and your money today. That’s the calculation you need to be thinking about. So just to hammer home this idea of eras in real estate investing, I’m pulling up a new chart.
This is the median sales price of houses sold in the United States going back to 1960. So we have 65 years of data here. So the thing that you notice when you look at this median sale price chart is that housing prices, the trend is very clearly up and of course there are exceptions to that. There are short-term exceptions to that, but the long-term trend of housing prices in the United States going up is pretty undeniable. Of course you’ll see this sort of short-term peak here in 2007 and it didn’t bottom out until about 2011 and it took a good long time before prices reached their peak again where they got back to old highs that took about six or seven years. So that was a really rough time in the housing market, but that is the exception to the rule actually if you look back at the data from today back to what we have reliable information for basically World War II since World War ii, that was by far the worst time in the housing market.
We’ve seen other periods like from 2018 to 2020 where prices were relatively flat. We also saw that in the early nineties. We also saw that during periods of really high inflation during the 1980s and we’ve been relatively flat on housing prices, especially when you look at this on an inflation adjusted basis over the last couple of years since we exited that amazing time in the housing market. But despite those things, the reason I like real estate and still believe in it so much, aside from the cash flow, aside from the tax benefits, aside from the value add opportunities on top of all those things, if you are concerned about appreciation and prices going up, I think this chart will show you that although we had all these different eras over the course of the last 65 years, prices have still at least kept pace with inflation and have exceeded them over this time period.
And this is true during periods of enormous turmoil. I know that we are in a period of whether it’s internal uncertainty about domestic trade policy or it’s all the things going on geopolitically across the world, there’s a lot going on. But you know what else? A lot of that was going on in the late sixties and early seventies. We had going off the gold standards in the 1970s, we had enormous ation and recessions, huge recessions in lots of the 1970s and 1980s and you know what? Home prices still went up. And I’m not saying that in the short term prices will definitely start turning around. I’ve tried to be candid that I think housing prices are going to remain, probably go down a little bit this year and they might remain relatively flat for the next year or so, but I’m still okay with that because the long-term trend in real estate is still going up and we are going into an era where assets are going to be on sale and that’s sort of the key thing here.
You are getting an opportunity to buy in at a lower price over the next couple of years and take advantage of these long-term trends of appreciating prices. And that is on top of those other things like cashflow, tax benefits, amortization, value add, all of those other benefits to real estate investing are still there. But I know a lot of people out there are rightfully concerned and wondering what to do in a market where prices are probably going to decline a little bit in a lot of markets, not in every market. And I just wanted to talk to everyone about zooming out a little bit, understanding the era that we’re in today and putting it in context over the long term, over what has happened with housing prices in the US basically for the last century. Alright, so that’s a brief overview of sort of the different eras that we’ve been in real estate over the last couple of decades. But I want to turn our attention to the decisions that you as an investor have to make today, which is real estate, the best use of your money today. We’re going to get to that in just a minute, but we do have to first take a short break. We’ll be right back. This week’s bigger news is brought to you by the Fundrise Flagship Fund, invest in private market real estate with the Fundrise flagship fund. Check out fundrise.com/pockets to learn more.
Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. We’re here talking about the more difficult era of real estate investing that we are in today and why personally, I still think real estate is worth every minute of time that you are thinking about investing into it and it is a worthy consideration for what you should put your money into. As I said earlier, I think the main point I want to convey to everyone in this episode is do not compare your real estate returns today to historical periods. Compare them to other current opportunities. And I know this is hard to do, but this is the job of an investor. It is your job to figure out where to allocate your resources. So you want to ask yourself, were returns easier to get in 2011? Well, in retrospect, yes, but at the time it wasn’t that obvious. Were returns easier to get in 2015 than they were in 2011.
Probably not. But 2015 was still an amazing, phenomenal time to invest in real estate. What about 2018? It was a little bit harder than it was in 2015, but I bet anyone right now would pay money to go back in time to invest in 2018. The point of this is that the timing, the market is impossible and no one knew in 2011 for sure that it was going to go on this amazing bull run. Additionally, no one in 2011 was thinking back to 2005 thinking, oh my gosh, what great returns we got in 2005 because there was immediate crash after that. So although it is super, super important to know what has happened in the housing market and to understand the history of the asset class that you’re going in, that’s what I’m talking about today. That’s sort of what I talk about all the time on this show and on the market.
These are really important things as an investor, but understanding what’s happened in the past and sort of getting hung up on whether or not today is as good as the past, those are different things. And so the question again is what do you do with your money today? And I will share my thoughts on real estate in a minute, but let’s just talk about the other options. There are plenty of them. The stock market of course, is the most obvious one. That is what most Americans who have money to invest in. I do invest pretty heavily in the stock market and there’s a chance that it continues to go up. But if you look at some objective measurements of the stock market, for example, if you look at it at PE ratios or the so-called buffet indicator, which compares valuations in the stock market to our total GDP in the country, if you look at almost all of these metrics of valuation of the stock market, prices are super, super high right now.
So that doesn’t mean that they can’t go up any further, but the upside for the stock market to me, if I’m just thinking about this logically, I think there is probably a greater chance that there is a decline in the stock market in the next year or so. Then there is a lot of amazing returns. We’ve just been on an amazing run in the stock market. We had two back-to-back years of over 20% returns. That’s incredible. And to expect something like that to happen a third year in a row, especially when valuations are so high, there’s so much uncertainty and risk in the market right now. I still will put money in the stock market, but I do see a lot of risk there. What about crypto? Crypto has been on an amazing run also over the last couple of years. I do invest a little bit in crypto myself, but crypto going into a uncertain time like this for me feels a little bit risky because it just doesn’t have the same hard assets.
For example, that real estate does or is not based on the same sort of fundamental valuations like the stock market is. Crypto is largely speculation and if you believe in that asset class and you want to speculate on that, that’s totally fine. Like I said, I do it a little bit myself, but I don’t think that if you were a wise sort of practical investor who’s trying to build long-term wealth in a methodical way, you would be putting all your money in crypto. I get that some people who want to take a shot are doing that and some of them have made unbelievable amounts of money, don’t get me wrong, but the risk adjustment when that’s the way I think about things. When I try and build a total portfolio for my own wealth building, I like to put a little bit of my money into those high risk, high reward assets like crypto and instead prefer to put the vast majority of my money in things like the stock market and primarily in real estate.
What about bonds? Bonds are kind of boring. They’ve gotten beat up a lot this year and although they are a great way to preserve wealth during normal periods, it’s not really a great way to build wealth frankly. And so I don’t think anyone who’s trying to build wealth, probably the people listening to this podcast aren’t going to get super excited about putting all your money in bonds, right? So that’s probably not a great thing. What about hard assets like gold? I do personally buy gold. I think it’s a good way to hedge, again, not going to make you rich. That is more of a stable thing to put money to hedge against inflation or if you have fears about currency debasement or something like that, you can use crypto and gold to do that. So a little bit of that. What about things like small businesses like buying service businesses?
I actually find highly intriguing. I think the numbers are there. It makes a lot of sense to buy kind of small businesses. They can throw off a lot of cashflow. I think it’s probably the only other asset class other than real estate that can realistically put out a good amount of cashflow, probably has higher cashflow potential than real estate, but it is higher risk, right? Not everyone knows how to go and operate a laundromat easily. And I know people think, oh, it’s just a laundromat, it’s super easy. Trust me, I see a lot of people failing at laundromats because they’re getting bid up and the prices are super high or you might want to buy a home painting franchise. Great idea. Those things can make a lot of money. You’re not just investing then you’re a small business owner and if you are not good at operating that business, you could fail and you could lose it all.
It’s also super time intensive. Running a small business takes a ton of work. So I’m not knocking on these other options. I think they’re all worthwhile considerations, but the reason I who spends literally all day every day thinking about where to put money and how to advise people on different investments, the reason I always come back to real estate investing is because the diversity of returns to me gives you the best risk adjusted returns. Are the upsides as huge as crypto? No. Is the cashflow as amazing as small business? No. But are the risks as high? No. And so when I think about the likelihood that I’m going to get a consistent 10, 15, 17% in real estate, I feel really good about that. And when I compare that to things like the stock market, that’s when I get really excited because the stock market historically returns somewhere between seven and 10% annually depending on how you invest, what methodology you’re looking at to track that real estate on the deals that I look for, I can get 10% in the first year and it only goes up from there.
And this risk adjusted returns really to me comes from the different areas. You get returns in real estate because we talked earlier about appreciation. Why long-term housing appreciates? That’s a really good hedge against inflation. And when you’re using leverage, that’s a great way to build wealth. On top of that though, you also get cashflow opportunities. They’re tough right now, but I think they’re going to get better. And if you’ve owned any real estate in your life, you know that the cashflow that you generate in year one is usually the lowest that you generate and that it just goes up over time. The third thing is amortization. That’s just paying off your loan using the income that you get from tenants. That earns you a return as well. What about tax benefits? What about value add investing? All of those things are still there even during this era of harder deals to find.
So to me, when I look at all these things together, even if home prices don’t go up next year, I’m still getting all those other things. I’m getting cashflow and amortization and tax benefits, I can still add value or perhaps one year I have a particularly tough time and I have a lot of expenses and so my cashflow is a little bit negative. Well, I still got maybe appreciation that year. I still got amortization, I still got all of those tax benefits and so it really mitigates your potential for downside losses in real estate while giving you four or five or even six different ways to make money. And since we don’t know how the market is going to react, and it’s almost impossible to time it, just having basically all of these buns in the oven in real estate is what gets me excited and has me continuing to come back to real estate as where I want to put the majority of my wealth because one of these things might hit in any given year and make your deal go from a single to a double, maybe even to a home run.
And that to me is why real estate is such a good risk adjusted return. Now getting back to sort of the point here is that you need to make this decision for yourself. I sort of went quickly through the pros and cons of the stock market bonds. That’s not the point of this show. This is a real estate show after all. So you should understand that I have a bias. I have been a real estate investor for 15 years and you should think about this for yourself. Do you think that real estate is a worthwhile investment? Do you think it has great risk adjusted returns? There are no right answers to this question, but this is the right question. That’s again the thing I want to hammer home. Think about how do I invest today? Do not think is real estate better today or 10 years ago?
I cannot tell you how many people reach out to me probably daily and say, I don’t want to invest right now. I’m going to wait until things go back to 2018. Maybe that will happen. Maybe it will literally never happen. We were in this unusually great period in 2018 that might never happen again. And if you don’t invest today, you might miss out on things. Same thing is true in the stock market, right? No one in their right mind, no stock investor I’ve ever met has ever said, I’m going to not invest in the stock market this year because 2013 was the best year in the last two decades and I’m going to wait until I see another 2013 coming. No one can see 2013 coming. And if you didn’t invest since 2013, you’d be missing out on enormous returns. So again, please just think about this question the right way. We do have to take another quick break though, but after it I will share my personal approach into how I’m investing in this new era. We’ll be right back.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m Dave Meyer talking to you about the new era that we’re in for real estate investing. And even though it is harder, I totally admit that I still think real estate is a worthwhile use of your time. And if you are trying to build wealth over the long term, to me it’s still pretty obvious honestly that real estate is still the answer, but the fact remains we are in a new time and new tactics are necessary to take advantage of not just the mitigating risks but also take advantage of the real opportunities that are going to be there in the housing market. So let’s take a minute and talk about these opportunities and then I’ll sort of talk about the tactical ways that you can take advantage of them. But first things first, I’m going to pull up a chart here that’s from the Census Bureau and Moody’s Analytics.
And basically what it shows is the size of the housing shortage in the United States. And this goes back to 1982. It stopped in 2022, but we’re looking at a 40 year time period and showing the difference between how much demand there is for housing in the US versus how many homes are available. And what you’ll see is as of the end of 2022, and by a lot of the estimates it’s only gotten worse since then, we were about 3.2 million homes short of what is needed in the United States. You may hear other figures for this stat, some people say it’s 1 million, some people say it’s 7 million. I like this one because it’s kind of right in the middle and there’s different methodologies. I think this methodology makes a lot of sense and this to me shows that the likelihood that prices are going to keep going up, going back to that first chart that I was sharing with everyone about the median home price in the us, that is likely to continue, at least in my point of view.
Even though there might be some short-term changes to this, we might see some flatness in the housing market. I invest in real estate for the, and I look at something like this and to me that says there’s still going to be sustained demand for housing for the next two years, five years probably for at least the next 10 years. And that’s why I want to put the majority of my investing into real estate because it’s going to be an in demand asset and has all of those ways to make money that I was talking about before. The second thing is that short-term market conditions are going to lend themselves to better deals. And for years we’ve been talking about, yeah, appreciation was great, just buy something. It’s going to appreciate you’re going to make so much money. And although it’s a little fundamentally questionable way of thinking about investing, it was true you could buy almost anything for a while because appreciation was going really well.
But the flip side of appreciation just going crazy is that everyone’s getting into the housing market. It is super competitive and we had extremely low inventory. That means there just wasn’t that much to buy on the market. But when you fast forward to where we are today, that is changing. We are shifting from a seller’s market to a buyer’s market. And buyer’s market have two sides to them. I always want to caveat that there is risk in a buyer’s market because prices are flat and they could come down, but there is also opportunity in a buyer’s market because sellers are competing for buyer’s attention. There was a recent study from Redfin that shows that right now in the housing market there are about 500,000 more sellers in the market than there are buyers. And that means those sellers, they are going to compete for your dollars, they want you to be a buyer on their property rather than the other millions of properties out there.
And they do that by offering concessions and offering price cuts and generally offering better terms to the buyer. And so these two things combine that I think long-term prices are still going to appreciate long-term real estate is still a great hedge against inflation. Long-term cashflow only grows over the lifetime of your loan. Long-term amortization gets better for you every single year that you own a property because that’s just the way that mortgages work. And so when you’re looking at long-term real estate makes so much sense. And although the short term is a little confusing, I totally admit that it can be a little scary, especially when you’re seeing price drops and thinking, I don’t want to buy something that is going to decline further. That’s a very reasonable thought and I’ll explain to you how to mitigate that risk in just a couple of minutes.
But for a second, just think about this long-term. Real estate has excellent prospects and right now prices may start to decline and you can probably get better terms on any acquisition that you make today than you would be able to get for the last several years. And so if you just think about this on the highest possible level, you might be able to buy a great asset that might be okay right now, it might be a single or a double, but over the long term that can and if you buy, well almost certainly will turn into a home run or a grand slam because that’s just the way that real estate works. And so that’s why I see so much opportunity. This is why I continue to invest my own money into real estate investing and why I think all of you should consider it.
Again, do the exercise for yourself, think about where you should be putting your money and if there’s something better than real estate. If you think, Dave, you’re crazy, there’s so much risk in real estate, I feel much more comfortable in the stock market, go do that. But if you want to have a little more control, if you want to be a little bit entrepreneurial, you want to accelerate your wealth building, I think real estate is still a very, very feasible option even though we’re no longer in that amazing Goldilocks era. So now let’s just talk about what I personally am investing in and the things that I am looking for. You’ve probably heard on the show if you listen regularly, that my framework for investing right now is what I call the upside era because we’re in this new time period and the tactics that worked from 2010 to 2023 aren’t the best one.
Some of them do still work, house hacking kind of works almost in any market, but I think that there’s a different way that we should be thinking about and approaching investing in this new era. And I call it the upside era, but my basic premise is this, number one, any deal that you buy, it has to cashflow. That is just a non-negotiable for me right now. And I know some people say you should buy for appreciation. I wouldn’t do it. I wouldn’t do it right now. I’ve never done it before. And some people can point to investments and times that it worked, and that is definitely true right now if you ask me, there’s a lot of risk in that strategy because the main thing in real estate, like I talked about holding on for the long term and if you don’t cashflow, it gets a lot harder to hold onto the long term.
If you’re not cashflowing, you’re coming out of pocket every month to float your investment and hopefully this never happens. But if you lose your job or there’s a family emergency or an unexpected expense, you might come into conflict and you might have to sell your property at a non-ideal time, and that is a really bad thing in real estate. You want to be able to hold on, and so you need to have break even cashflow at a minimum by the end of year one. The second thing that I’m looking for right now is buying below current market comps. So everyone always wants to do this, but right now it is actually possible. And what I mean by that is saying you need to be able to comp or your agent needs to help you be able to comp. This basically means looking at comparable properties and deciding not based on what the seller lists a property for, but trying to decide what the property is actually worth in today’s market.
And let’s just say the seller lists this property for $300,000, but you do your comps and $300,000 is right, but you’re thinking, man, prices could go down one, two, maybe 3% over the next couple of years. You need to buy below that comp. So 3% of 300,000 is $9,000. You should be targeting to buy that property for 290,000. And I know that sounds idealistic, right? You’re like, oh yeah, of course, just go ask people for discounts. But right now they’re actually giving them, you can look this up. You can see in the data that sellers are offering much more concessions than they have over the last five years, and not every seller is going to offer concessions. Not everyone’s going to agree to your price, but this is the time to be patient and to be disciplined and to make sure that you are buying below market comps.
Those are two things I said break even cashflow and you want to buy below market comps. The third thing that I always look for is a 10% annualized return in your first full year of operation. Again, that’s after your stabilization. Stabilization is a period where you’re probably going to be spending more money than you’re taking in. So I kind of count that differently. You need to absolutely budget for that when you’re running your numbers. If it’s going to cost you 30 grand and holding costs and renovation costs to stabilize a property, you need to account for that. But then in my mind, I’m always like, okay, once I get that up and running, what’s the first year look like? And to me, it needs to be at least a 10%, ideally a 12% annualized ROI. And I didn’t just make that number up out of nowhere.
As I told you guys, I invest in the stock market. That gets me eight 9% over time. That’s my average. But real estate takes work, and so I need to beat that. I need to beat that by at least 1%, ideally by about 3%. So I would target a 10 to 12% minimum for your annualized return. And guys, I’m talking about this stuff. You can go on BiggerPockets, you can just go on our calculators and run your numbers and it will tell you what your first year investment’s going to be. So this is not some math homework that you have to go do. You can do this in five minutes on the BiggerPockets website. Just go do that. So that’s the third thing. And the fourth thing, this isn’t necessary, but I personally think that looking for value add is really good right now. This is opportunities to improve property significantly during corrections like the one I believe that we were entering.
You see this sort of split in the market where prices for properties that have not been renovated go down further than the property values for properties that are in really good shape. And so that actually grows your margin potentially for how much you can improve the value of your home. Your A RV stays relatively similar, but your acquisition cost starts to go down. And so that presents an opportunity to me, and that’s another thing I want to look for in the upside era. That’s personally what I look for, but there are tons of other upsides in real estate right now. You might be looking for areas where rents are likely to grow, right? If you can identify an area where there hasn’t been a lot of multifamily construction, rents are probably going to keep going up and that’s going to help your cashflow. That’s a huge upside over the long run.
Look into the path of progress. Even though we might see national appreciation drop below zero for a year or so. If you’re buying in the right place, prices are still going to go up in certain markets and in certain pockets of certain markets, they’re definitely going to go up. That is absolutely going to happen. Look for zoning opportunities, places said ADUs, add units, add bedrooms. Those are great ways to take a deal that meets all the criteria I was just talking about and takes it from a single or a double to a triple or a home run. And then always look for all those tax benefits because even if you are making solid money, it doesn’t have to be home run money, but if you’re not paying taxes on that double, that can turn it into a triple or home run all by itself because you’re keeping more of the income that you generate.
All of these things combined. If I can find these deals, which I know I can because I have in the last couple of years, and I think the deals are going to just become more abundant, if I can meet these criteria, I believe that this is a great place to keep real estate and the majority of my portfolio. So that’s how I answer this question. Again, the question I want everyone to think about is what’s the best way to use my money today to achieve my own financial goals? For me, it’s about two thirds of my wealth going into real estate, about one third, roughly going into the stock market and a little bit in other things, but I still believe real estate offers amazing upside. Whether it’s an inflation hedge because of future appreciation, future rent growth, tax benefits, amortization, all of those things are still there.
We are in a different era. It is harder to find deals, absolutely, but those deals are going to be easier to find over the next couple of years, and the ability to earn those returns has not gone away. So that’s how I think about it. You are of course free to disagree, but again, think about it. Please think about your money and your investing decisions in the modern context. Think about your opportunity costs. Think about what is the best way to achieve your goals, and don’t focus on some era that probably is never coming back. That is the best advice that I can give to you in terms of resource allocation and asset allocation in the new era. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets podcast. I hope it was valuable to you. I had a lot of fun thinking about and thinking through this episode, so please drop me a comment, let me know what you thought about it. I would really appreciate that. For BiggerPockets, I’m Dave Meyer. I’ll see you next time.

 

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Ashley Kehr:
You’ve got cash ready but can’t make the numbers work for a house Hack. High interest rates are shaking your bur plans and your tenant wants out of their lease early. What now?

Tony Robinson:
Today we’re unpacking three pressing questions that many Ricky are facing right now with real solutions that you can apply immediately.

Ashley Kehr:
This is the Real Estate Rookie podcast. I’m Ashley Care.

Tony Robinson:
And I’m Tony j Robinson. And with that, let’s get into our first question. So question number one today comes from Ben. Ben says, Hey everyone. I’m 26 years old, my wife is 29. We’ve been travel nursing for the last two years and have a pretty great cash pile to get started in real estate investing. We were planning on traveling longer, but just found out that we’re expecting. Odds are we will need to reel in our wonderlust and settle back down where all started, which is Akron, Ohio. The main goal for us is to find a two to four unit, preferably turnkey and at live in one side for a year or so before refinancing and scaling. An issue I’m running into in my market though, is high listing prices and lower rents not meeting the 1% rule. Those that do not meet the 1% rule are value adds that will need more work than I can put in right now. Looking for input though on a duplex I found in a great area, it’s listed at 285,001 side is already renting for $1,100. It’s newly renovated and turnkey. If we live on one side, we’ll still be paying $835 per month plus utilities. This seems like a lot for a house hack. Is the asking price outrageous? Is the rent too low or are these situations the new normal? Alright, so house hacking and what actually makes a house hack a good deal? So I guess what jumps out at you first, Ashley, as we hear that question?

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, well, I think bringing up the 1% rule, I think for several years now, it’s been hard in a lot of markets to hit the 1% rule, but that shouldn’t be the only metric that you are looking at. There’s other metrics that make you money and the 1% rule doesn’t always mean that it’s a great deal. For example, in Buffalo, New York, I for a very long time could very easily hit the 1% rule, sometimes the 3% rule, but they were on duplexes that were in lower income areas. They actually, I found out became the headache properties and the property taxes were so high on them that they beat the 1% rule, but they didn’t make the 50% rule where your expenses should be 50% of the rental income. So I would definitely take the 1% rule just like any other metric with a grain of salt and make sure that you’re looking at other metrics of the property instead of just the 1% rule.

Tony Robinson:
I think we should also reframe what makes a house hack successful and much like the 1% rule and being able to hit that has changed I think. So two has the perfect house hack where you’re getting paid to live somewhere. Living expenses are typically one of the biggest expenses after taxes for the average American. And if you can reduce that even by some percentage, I think you’re still getting ahead. And in this scenario they said that they’re paying $835 a month for their side of that duplex while the side right next to them is renting out for $1,100. So they’re saving close to $400 on their rent every single month or 300 I guess in the scenario, several hundred dollars every single month on what they would be paying in rent elsewhere. So I think in theory you’re still winning on this deal because you’re getting reduced housing expenses, you have a tenant already placed on the other side, you have the ability to build equity with this property over the next however long you tend to hold it. And then when you move out, if you’re renting both sides say rent doesn’t even increase, you’re renting both sides at 1100 bucks, that’s $2,200 total. So now you’re netting, right now you’re cashflow positive on that deal. So I think there’s more to look at than just are we getting paid to live here or are we able to live here rent free and making sure that you’re taking into account all of the other factors.

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more with that. My sister, when she first did her house hack, she was paying $45 to live there in an apartment that was, she could have rented for around $900 and she’s owned that property I think for five years now, and she’s been able to increase the rent in the other unit. Her mortgage payment has stayed the same, so she’s paying nothing to live in there now. And also it’s become a more expensive apartment where if she went and lived in a very similar apartment to that one that she would be paying a lot more in rent. So I think you have to look at the long-term result of house hacking too is that your mortgage payment stays the same, you can increase the rent as time goes on, and if you did rent somebody else, your rent most likely would continue to go up to where your mortgage payment will go up slightly due to insurance and property taxes. But most landlords raise their rent to cover and still profit above and beyond that. So you’re still making out that way.

Tony Robinson:
I think one last thing that I’ll comment on is in the question they say our main goal is to find a two to four unit, preferably to turnkey live in one side for a year or so before refinancing and scaling. And that before refinancing I think is a very important caveat. Let know what you think Ashley, but I feel like buying a turnkey duplex and being able to refinance in a year is probably going to be tough because there’s no value add, right? What you bought it a year ago is probably going to be pretty close to what it’s worth in 12 months from there. So if that is the goal to be able to refinance and scale, you’re basically asking about buring, I might almost focus on something that needs a little bit of love where you can do some value add so that way when you do refinance a year, there’s some room there. So just a very important piece to call out.

Ashley Kehr:
I actually just had a refinance done on the property and literally the first question, and it was a very short time period, it was bought the property and within a month was refinancing. And the first thing the appraiser asked was what did you do? What were the improvements? So even if we didn’t do anything and we had bought the property below market value, the appraiser was still wanting to know, obviously she’s looking at the purchase price, what we bought it for. She wants to know what those improvements were, where we added the value to the property that she’s out here appraising it for. So I think yeah, definitely going the value add route. Also they’re saying Akron, Ohio is look at what the appreciation is in that area. If you’ve watched the news, you’ve seen that the market is shifting, it’s becoming more of a buyer’s market than a seller’s market, which could lower the sales prices of properties in that area and appraisers appraise the property based on comparable sales in the area.
So a year from now, that house could potentially be worth less. So that’s always a risk. So one thing I always like to be cautious of, if you are not putting in any value, you either have to buy the property below market value, get a deep discount on it, and maybe the way the market is changing, that will happen. Or you have to be okay that in a year you might not be able to refinance the property and pull out more money. Two other considerations is looking at the closing costs on these properties for doing two mortgages back to back. So if you did one mortgage, what are your closing costs going to be when you purchase it? And then what are the closing costs? What amount does that equal to and does it offset what you’d actually get back in the refinance to you? I think weigh out those two scenarios and run the numbers on it. House hacking might have changed, but what about refinancing your burr at today’s higher rates up next? Let’s unpack if waiting is worth it, but first we’ll take a quick break to hear a word from today’s show sponsors.
Okay, welcome back. So we got our second question today and this question comes from Amos. My partner and I have successfully used the Bur method gaining us five doors in the last five years. Congratulations. However, this last project has posed a dilemma. In short, we went over budget on the rehab and the proposed interest rate is 8.75%. If we move forward with financing, we used our own cash to buy it and fully renovate as the property required Going down to the studs, our forecasted rental income of $2,145 per month will cashflows about $200 per month based on the interest rate as high as 8%. Additionally, going over budget with a higher interest rate at 8.75% made us pause to reconsider other options. We are totally against analysis paralysis, so we need your help. Could or should we consider delaying the refinance for at least another year if we can likely get cash from other sources for the next rehab, which is currently in the demo stage, what would be the implications, good or bad, in regards to taxes, cash on cash return or anything else? Mind you, my partner and I have decided against personal financing at 7.65% as we prefer to not risk our other assets. I think this is actually a dilemma a lot of people have run into over the last year or so, or maybe even a little bit longer as rates have shifted as to having that interest rate shock of, oh my gosh, this is not what I expected.

Tony Robinson:
Yeah, I think there’s a few options, right? One you’ve got, I guess they didn’t say how much they purchased it for, but however much they bought it for. All of that is just cash, right? That’s sitting in that deal. So you’ve got a good amount of equity right now tied up into this single property. So I think you have to ask yourself what kind of return on equity are you getting, right? What kind of return on investment are you getting with all of your cash sitting in this deal? Rents is going to be 2145, maybe you’re netting after expenses a little less than 2000 bucks, 1500 somewhere in that ballpark after you pay out all of your expenses. So is that 1500 bucks per month? Is that a good enough return for you and your partner to say, yeah, we can write it out for another year. If it’s a 50% return, yeah, obviously it’s a no brainer If it’s like a 2% return, well now you got to ask, okay, can we actually go out and get a better return on that capital even with the eight and three quarter interest rate, can we go and get that cash back and redeploy it elsewhere to get a better return? So I think there’s something to be said about how much cash do you have stuck in that deal right now and what does that return look like?

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, I’m seeing two other options. One is you look at selling the property, what would you make if you sold the property? Would that be a large amount of money that it’s actually worth it to unload? And then you’re just adding to your capital pile. The second thing is to refinance, but don’t pull all of your money out, maybe do half so your mortgage payment is lower, you’re still recouping some of your funds and you still have some of that money for the next rehab. So that’s honestly probably the route I would take if you bought this property to have it as a buy and hold, I would look at refinancing but not taking all of my money out. And then at a future date you could refinance, which stinks having to pay include the closing costs twice. But you could also look at a commercial line of credit too.
So you could do the commercial line of credit now even and or you could do the commercial line of credit in the future and still have the mortgage on the property too. So I think there are certain options. The biggest recommendation right now is what you’re going to do is talk to under other lenders and figure out what other options do they have, the commercial line of credit, things like that. And then I would run the numbers on if you didn’t pull all of your money out, but you just took some of it back out.

Tony Robinson:
Yeah, that’s a great point. Ashley, on talking to more lenders, I wonder how many folks Amos actually talked to and is 8.75 the best rate or is that the only rate that you’ve seen so far? Because to Ashley’s point, every lender could look at this same exact deal and give you a completely different menu of options in terms of what financing looks like. So actually that should be the very first step is go shop this deal to 50 other lenders and see who can maybe give you better terms based on what you’ve done because your cashflow positive, newly renovated, I’m assuming maybe it’s stabilized already, so you’ve got a good asset. So can you get someone else to maybe give you better terms? The last thing that I would call out is maybe also look into an adjustable rate mortgage. I’ve personally never done one before, but if you can get the rate down to somewhere below eight for the next three to five years, does that give you enough to say, okay, cool, now we can refinance, get our capital back. And to Ashley’s point, if you need to refinance again later or sell later, that’s an option, but at least you’ve freed up some of that cashflow in the short term. So I think maybe even exploring some different loan products, which again, you’ll have those brought to you as you start talking to different lenders.

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, we actually had Dave Meyer on recently on an episode and he’s doing an adjustable rate mortgage right now on a property and he ended up getting another interest point off because he already had a relationship, he had a brokerage account, I believe with this bank and they actually gave him another percentage point off of the interest rate because of that relationship. So I think that’s another avenue to look into too, if you already have even just money sitting in a savings account, banks want those deposits, they want your money. So if you have something like that, talk to that bank and see if they do have options for you or consider moving your money to a bank that does do something like that where they give you a discount on lending because of your current relationship already with having money with them.

Tony Robinson:
So talk to more lenders feels like the big solution here to get more insight. But there’s actually one part though actually this question that we didn’t really address and it was the fact that they actually already have another demo going on. So they said get cash from other sources for the next rehab, which is currently in the demo stage. So they’ve already committed to this next deal and if you are able to get sources cash from other sources, then maybe that gives you some more time to figure this out. But if time is ticking and you guys are out of cash, now you’ve got another deal that maybe it’s going to end up sitting, maybe you’ve got hard money on that, who knows where you guys are at with that. So maybe you’re almost forced into some sort of refinance in this deal to free up that cash and get into the next one. So I wouldn’t look at it in a vacuum and make sure that you’re taking into account this deal that’s already started the demo stage as well.

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, and I think the commercial line of credit would be a great option for that too, is having the line of credit to use towards at least getting that on the property and using those funds towards the rehab until you decide what to do with this other property or wait to rates go down. I saw an article the other day stating that it’s projected there might be two more interest rate cuts this year, so wouldn’t that be nice? But we’ll see.

Tony Robinson:
Alright guys, we’re going to take a quick break before our last question, but while we’re gone, be sure to subscribe to the Real Estate Ricky YouTube channel. You can find this at realestate Rookie. And if you’re listening to this in podcast form, be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, subscribe that way you guys are notified anytime we drop a new episode. So we’ll be back with more right after this. Alright guys, let’s jump back in. So our next question comes from Garrett. Alright, Garrett says, I have a tenant who wants to break her year lease five months early. She has offered to pay three of the five months but keep her deposit and last month’s rent if we let her go. Having some buffer to find a new tenant would be nice, but the fact that we need to find one during the holidays and leading into winter distilled not sit well with me, plus she’s breaking her lease.
Should I negotiate the amount with her and let her go and hoping we can find someone for Jan one or do I play hardball and hold her to the lease? Now there’s some additional context here which I think is important for how we answer this question. So they go on to say some backstory. She paid her first six months upfront because she sold her house to get out of debt. She did not have a job but paid upfront to build trust and assured us that she would have a job in six months time. Last week she sent a picture of a small hole in the linoleum floor and crack in the trim, which looks like she dropped some heavy piece of furniture. She said it happened while she was out of town and now she does not feel safe in the house. December was the first month she was supposed to pay after her six month prepayment, but I knew right away she was going to use the strange hole in the floor to get out of her lease.
Now that she needs to start paying, she did pay December’s rent and then waited a week before she said she wants to leave. Any suggestions on how to handle this? The house in North Carolina. So just to recap here, I know there was a lot, but basically this tenant is unemployed, has a big chunk of cash, they move into garage unit pay several months upfront, six months upfront, and then the first month that she’s supposed to start paying again, she pays and then makes this big claim about her not feeling safe and wanting to break her lease. And Garrett’s assumption here is that maybe she hasn’t gotten a job, maybe she doesn’t have enough to keep paying rent. So hearing all that, Ashley is our resident long-term rental tenant management queen. What’s the advice?

Ashley Kehr:
I have to say that my opinion on this has changed over the years. I would’ve been posting the same thing as to I am not, and basically I would’ve been like, I am not letting this person leave. They signed a year lease with me, blah, blah, blah, blah. I have completely shifted after having a ton of tenant experiences. I would let them go if this is already a headache, if they don’t have the money, if they didn’t get a job, you don’t want them anyways, you’re just going to have to evict them down the road. I wish that some tenants would say, I need to get out of my lease. I need to move before I actually had to spend $2,500 to evicted them. So I think even though this person obviously isn’t being honest, if that’s the case or whatever it may be, if either way, I already see this tenant as being a problem and I would rather let somebody out of their lease.
Here’s a big mindset shift that I have had. Being a landlord should be customer service to a sense there is a line, but you want someone to be happy in your property. It is first of all such a good feeling when somebody is telling you they love living there, blah, blah, blah. But you are providing someone a home and it will make your life so much easier if they love where they live. You want somebody to love where they live and providing a nice safe house for them. If they don’t want to live there, it is just going to be a headache for you. Why make somebody stay in the lease? And I get your point of having to fill the vacancy that is expensive. Okay? I’m also saying all this from the state of New York where it is very, very difficult to evict someone.
And if someone doesn’t want to live there and they feel forced to live there, there may be the chance that they just stop paying. And if you already think she doesn’t have the money, let her out of the lease because it could be way more expensive to go through an eviction, collect that unpaid rent than it would be to get a new tenant in place. One thing I would do though is I would do a move out inspection with her and I would go ahead and charge her for that damage on the floor. Even if it happened while she was out of town. It is her property. She should have went and filed a police report then that somebody obviously came into her property and did damage in her floor. And if she doesn’t have that, then you are entitled to her that. And so I think looking at the scenario as if I was in this situation, I would let the person out of the lease because they’re going to be a headache going forward, especially if you think they don’t have the money to pay, let them out because then you’re going to be stuck with them.
I would take their security deposit and I would use that to fix the floor though I would not let them give you an excuse for that. It happened while they were occupying the unit. And if it was some kind of damage, they should use their renter’s insurance policy to replace it themselves. Or they should file a police report and have the police investigate who broke into their apartment and did this damage. And then they can take that person to small claims court. So three of the five months, but keep her deposit in last month’s rent. Okay, first of all, I think that’s great that she’s already offering to pay three of the five months. That gives you three months to find a tenant. That should be plenty of time to get somebody else in place. And as far as her deposit, I would still weigh that out as to look at, I’ll have to do a walkthrough of the property to see if there’s any damage in place on the property before you agree to give her deposit.
I also recommend in the future, in your lease agreements you put in, what happens if somebody does break their lease. So in most cases, a common clause is stating that they will, if they decide to break their lease, they will be charged one month’s rent, their security deposit will be retained. Another one is that they will be charged until the unit is filled. And a lot of state laws have it as to you have to, as the landlord, actively list the unit and try to get someone in it. So look in your lease agreement too. Do you already have something in there that states some of this?

Tony Robinson:
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Ashley is our resident tenant relations queen for the podcast.

Ashley Kehr:
It’s just because I spent a lot of time crying holding my hair.

Tony Robinson:
But I love the point of the police report because it really forces them to either A, admit that they were maybe lying or b file, a false police report, which is a crime in and of itself because what are the chances that there’s some burglar who’s breaking into apartment units, not stealing anything, but just poking holes in people’s floor. So I love that approach, but I appreciate you saying that your philosophy, this has changed as you’ve matured as an investor. And I think that’s the cool part of doing this multiple, multiple, multiple times, is that you start to identify the assumptions you made when you were starting out and how some of those assumptions were true. And you can keep those ones. And then how some of your other assumptions were false. And this one, I think it’s more of a pride thing than a truly logical thing because mathematically, if we just looked at this question, the answer is black and it is plain and clear, right?
Okay, cool. She’s offering three months at the five months that are left. That’s more than enough cash for me to go out there and find a new tenant for anything. I might end up making more money if I can turn this shooting and get it re-rented in less than three months. So mathematically it’s easy. I think the bigger part is just like, and you kind of feel like this person’s taking advantage of you maybe in a way. And I think that’s the point that I’m trying to make is that as a real estate investor, we have to sometimes separate our emotions from the facts of the situation. And if we can look at the facts objectively and say, what is the actual best decision for the business and not for my ego, you can tend to make better decisions. So I appreciate you sharing that. I think a lot of rookie need to hear that.

Ashley Kehr:
And that’s my point of view. And I’m going to give you the other point of view that most other investors would have, as they would say, stick to the lease, tenants will start to walk all over you. If you give to this person, maybe you have a multi-unit and this person, oh, they got to leave early, the landlord will let me do this too. So there investors will have two very different takes on this as to how to handle it. I’m just giving you my opinion. I don’t like stress, I don’t like headaches. I would rather just be done with this person and move on. And I think the fact that they’re going to pay three months rent, I don’t think I’ve ever had a tenant that has tried to break a lease that has offered that upfront. I had to negotiate something like that with them. So I think that’s great. But yeah, there are other investors that say, no, stick to the lease agreement. They sign the lease, you sign the lease. So whatever is in the lease agreement is fair. And if you don’t have an early termination clause in there, then look at then you have a one year lease and you should stick to that. So do what you think is best for your business. But I at least wanted to give you that other viewpoint because my opinion is not what every investor would do.

Tony Robinson:
But like you said, your sanity and your peace of mind, it’s hard to put a price on that. And we’ve had guest ask you who’ve checked into our short-term rentals and just start complaining about everything. The last guest just checked out, they left us a glowing five star review. Hey, we love the place. Exact same property, someone else checks in and they’re just complaining about everything. And we’ve had situations where we’re like, Hey, look, if this place doesn’t meet your standards, unfortunately there’s nothing we can do to change that. We’d be happy to give you a full refund if you leave the house tonight.

Ashley Kehr:
I learned that from you, Tony, and I’ve done that two times. And it was like, I don’t care about the money. Yes, that’s going to hurt us, but having to deal with these people for another four days and getting a bad review, not worth it. And both of those times they left good reviews. They were so thankful. They said, we will leave a good review. And they did.

Tony Robinson:
So yeah, it’s hard to put a price on peace of mind. So I agree with you, Ashley, and obviously I think there’s something to be said about sticking to the lease, but when you compare the pros and cons to your point of having to deal with this person for another four months, I think the benefit of just letting them leave far outweighs the, Hey, let’s stick to the six to the lease piece. So anyway, hopefully people got some value from that. I appreciate hearing your insights on how to deal with the tenant relations. As always, Ash.

Ashley Kehr:
Well thank you guys so much for joining us today on this episode of Ricky Reply. I’m Ashley. He’s Tony. And we’ll see you guys on the next episode.

 

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By historical metrics, the U.S. stock market is overvalued—to put it mildly. The S&P 500 has a price/earnings (P/E) ratio of 28.75 at the time of this writing, compared to a median of 20.28 from 1970 to today. The “Buffett Indicator,” or the ratio of a country’s total stock market value to its total GDP, is currently 207.7%, compared to a healthy number in the 100%-136% range. 

And that says nothing of the unpredictable trade policies in Washington right now. Investors have grown complacent over tariff policies, inflation risk, and recession risk. 

Stock market crashes are part of market economics. The question isn’t if, but when, the next stock market crash will hit. 

As a real estate investor, that raises an important question: How well do real estate investments insulate you from stock market crashes? It turns out there are several answers to that question. 

Corrections

Sometimes, stock investors just bid up prices too high. The market then corrects, with prices dropping back down to levels justified by company revenues and projections. 

That doesn’t hurt real estate investors at all. It’s healthy and normal in any market, where prices are determined by what buyers and sellers are each willing to accept. 

Geopolitical Risk

Geopolitical risk feels higher than usual right now. Several hot wars continue raging, the U.S. recently bombed an ally to Russia and China, and foreign policy out of the White House feels unpredictable. 

Stock markets react badly to geopolitical events. They don’t necessarily crash into bear markets, but news of wars, air strikes, diplomatic tensions, and trade wars all send stock investors ducking for cover. 

While real estate doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it’s far more local than stocks. Local property values and revenues are based on local market conditions, rather than conflicts taking place half a world away that might snarl supply chains, but won’t put local workers out of their jobs. That makes most real estate investments pretty insulated from geopolitical risk. 

Read this thought exercise for how real estate would perform if a new world war broke out today. 

Recession Risk: Income

Recessions hurt business income and real estate income alike. 

In a recession, consumers spend less, businesses earn less, and they cut workers or freeze hiring. On the residential side, that means higher rent defaults, turnover rates, and vacancy rates, and more household bundling (adults moving in together instead of living independently). 

On the commercial side, the same thing happens with office and industrial tenants. 

Even so, rental income doesn’t disappear. Rents might dip slightly, and landlords may have to offer more concessions. But for anyone relying on real estate income, such as retirees and professional investors, they’ll still collect it.

There are also plenty of recession-resilient real estate investments out there. Every month, I invest as a member of a co-investing club, which has kept an eye out for recession-resilient investments over the past year. 

Stock investors will see lower or paused dividends. But where they’ll really suffer is in prices, especially among retirees who rely on selling off stocks to pay their bills. 

Recession Risk: Prices

Going back to 1957, the S&P 500 declined by an average of 31% in the last 10 recessions. 

In contrast, home prices don’t necessarily drop in recessions. Four of the last six recessions actually saw home prices increase. And while REITs do crash in recessions, they also rebound before other asset prices

So why does real estate fare so much better than stocks in recessions? 

Because in recessions, the Federal Reserve cuts interest rates to juice the economy. And that makes both residential and commercial real estate more affordable, so buyers can and do offer higher prices. 

Commercial real estate prices are based on cap rates, which move in near lockstep with interest rates. When interest rates and cap rates drop, property values rise. 

As a passive real estate investor with partial ownership in over 3,500 units, recessions don’t keep me up at night. I worry more about the risk of sustained high interest rates due to inflation. 

Inflation Risk

Inflation is a mixed bag for real estate investors. 

On the one hand, it drives up the nominal property values and rents. For investors with long-term fixed-interest loans, that’s all upside. The monthly loan payment stays fixed in yesteryear’s dollars, while rents and values shoot through the roof. That works out especially well for residential investors with one-to-four-unit properties. 

The downside is that the Federal Reserve raises interest rates to combat inflation. That sends cap rates higher, which means lower property values for commercial real estate. 

Not all commercial properties suffer. Properties with longer-term, fixed-interest debt can enjoy higher cash flow from surging rents. They don’t have to sell while cap rates are high; they can wait for a better seller’s market. 

The problem is that many commercial real estate investors use short-term, floating-interest debt. When we vet investments together in our co-investing club, we pay close attention to the operator’s loan terms. We want to see plenty of runway for operators to rake in higher rents during periods of inflation without being forced to sell or refinance in a high-interest market. 

As for stocks, they don’t perform as well as real estate during periods of inflation. But they certainly do better than bonds. In periods of rising inflation, real estate has returned an average of 10.6%, compared to 7.3% for global equities and 0.5% for Treasury bonds. 

Stagflation Risk

Recessions alone don’t crush real estate investors. Neither does inflation alone. The scariest risk to real estate investors comes from stagflation: a weak economy, coupled with high inflation. 

In times of stagflation, central banks are caught between the rock of recession and the hard place of inflation. If they cut interest rates, it might help jump-start the economy, but it can also spur inflation. The opposite happens if they raise interest rates. 

That’s what worries me the most about Trump’s tariffs: They both hurt the economy and drive up inflation. 

So far, the U.S. economy has proven resilient in the face of dizzying policy changes out of D.C. I don’t know how stocks and real estate will perform over the next few years. But I gave up trying to predict the future years ago. 

Today, I practice dollar-cost averaging with my real estate and stock investments. Every week, my roboadvisor pulls money out of my bank account to invest automatically for me. Every month, I invest $5,000 in a new passive real estate investment through the co-investing club. 

The stock market rises, the stock market falls. I can worry about my stock portfolio’s gyrations as I get closer to retirement, but for now, I keep enjoying passive income from private notes, real estate syndications, and funds.

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When most investors analyze a deal, they zoom in on the property. They focus on purchase price, cap rate, rent comps, and maybe a few big-picture stats about the city. 

But here’s the truth: Great deals are not just about properties. They are about places. And the places that drive the best returns are often hidden in plain sight. They are tucked within neighborhoods that are outperforming their metro, but completely off the radar of your competition. 

That is where neighborhood-level data becomes your unfair advantage. These local insights—like tenant credit trends, shifts in safety, school ratings, and access to jobs or amenities—can reveal pockets of opportunity that standard underwriting overlooks.

The problem is that getting that kind of data used to take hours of research and piecing together multiple platforms. But now, tools like WDSuite bring everything together in one place—and it’s completely free. 

We will break down why neighborhood data matters, what metrics investors should pay attention to, and how you can use WDSuite to spot deals before the rest of the market catches on.

Why Neighborhood-Level Data Matters

Many investors stop at the city or metro level when evaluating a market. But the real drivers of performance live at the neighborhood level. 

Two properties could be just a few blocks apart, and yet experience totally different outcomes. One may be surrounded by higher-income renters, new infrastructure, and increasing safety. The other might suffer from higher vacancy, stagnant rents, and inconsistent tenant quality. 

As an investor in Buffalo, New York, I can tell you that the market analysis can shift drastically from one end of a street to another. Every city or market is like this, with areas that are thriving, areas that are up and coming, and areas in disrepair. 

Looking at the data set as a whole for a market won’t give you the correct neighborhood to invest in. You need to use tools and resources to get hyperlocal with your analysis. Hyperlocal data helps you move past general trends and understand the real forces shaping value and risk, block by block. 

This is where WDSuite shines. It uses a unique clustering algorithm to group similar census blocks and give you insights at the neighborhood level, not just by ZIP code. Instead of relying on assumptions or out-of-date comparables, you can evaluate market health based on real-time indicators that matter for your specific deal.

Key Neighborhood Metrics That Can Make or Break a Deal

Here are the types of data smart investors are using to inform their buying decisions—and how WDSuite delivers them in one streamlined experience.

Demographics and housing trends

Metrics like rent-to-income ratios, average household size, and population growth tell you a lot about a neighborhood’s stability. WDSuite allows you to compare this data side by side across neighborhoods to identify which areas are trending upward and which are at risk of softening.

Crime and safety

Perception matters, but hard numbers matter more. WDSuite tracks both violent and property crime at the local level. Whether you are investing in a new area or looking for signs of change in a familiar market, this safety data helps you understand risk before you commit.

School quality and local amenities

High-performing schools, grocery stores, public transit, and major employers all contribute to stronger tenant demand. WDSuite lets you map these factors instantly, so you can see which neighborhoods have long-term fundamentals—and which might struggle to retain tenants.

Tenant credit health

This is one of WDSuite’s most powerful features. It shows tenant credit trends and rent delinquency risk in the immediate area. If a neighborhood’s tenants are consistently paying on time, that’s a good sign. If rent is regularly late or unpaid, that tells a different story.

Automated Valuation Model (AVM)

WDSuite also includes a built-in Automated Valuation Model to help you quickly estimate what a property is worth. 

If you are not familiar with AVMs, they are computer-generated estimates of a property’s current value. An AVM gathers data from recent sales, rental income, property features, and neighborhood trends. Then it uses a machine-learning algorithm to analyze all that information and produce a valuation estimate.

An AVM is kind of like a Zestimate, but designed for serious investors and built on commercial-grade data (far more accurate). WDSuite’s AVM is accurate within a median error of under 6%, which gives you a fast, reliable way to double-check your underwriting or identify undervalued deals.

How to Spot Opportunities in Minutes Using WDSuite

Let’s walk through how an investor might use WDSuite to uncover strong neighborhoods that others are overlooking. 

First, filter for neighborhoods with rising income and improving safety metrics. Then, use the tenant credit data to see which areas are attracting financially stable renters. Pull in the AVM data to identify any pricing gaps between similar properties in different pockets. Finally, use the platform’s interactive map to review comps, amenity access, and walkability. 

You now have a full view of not just the deal, but the entire environment surrounding it. And you can do it all without spreadsheets or outside data subscriptions.

Final Thoughts

The best deals are not always found on the MLS or handed to you by a broker. They are found by looking deeper into the neighborhoods where conditions are quietly shifting in your favor.

With WDSuite, you get access to the kind of insights that used to be reserved for institutional investors. It brings together the data you need to make smart decisions at the neighborhood level, so you can act faster, reduce risk, and uncover better opportunities.

You can sign up for free at WDSuite and start analyzing markets in just a few clicks. If you are serious about leveling up your investment strategy, this is one tool worth having in your corner.



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President Trump’s newly signed “One Big Beautiful Bill Act” has made the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act provisions permanent, creating massive opportunities for real estate investors to reduce their tax burden and potentially save thousands of dollars on their 2025 returns. On this episode of On The Market, host Dave Meyer and CPA Brandon Hall break down the most significant tax code changes included in the new legislation. They’ll touch on the permanent extension of 100% bonus depreciation, the increased SALT deduction cap and QBI deduction for pass-through entities.

With housing prices remaining elevated and mortgage rates still impacting affordability, these permanent tax advantages could be the key to maintaining profitability and cash flow in today’s changing real estate market.

Dave:
President Trump signed the one big beautiful bill act into law on July 4th. And there are some huge potential implications for real estate investors. Tax code changes can be complicated, and there were numerous different versions of this bill that floated around before the final bill that passed in the house and Senate was actually finalized. So today we’re gonna break down what’s actually in the bill and how it can save you money on your 2025 returns. Hey everyone, it’s Dave. Welcome back to another episode of On The Market. We’re talking about President Trump’s big, beautiful bill. Today we’re going to get into bonus depreciation. Salt caps pass through deductions and much more. These tax code nuances might not be the most exciting thing out there, but understanding them can absolutely increase your returns and really help your financial position. However, I am absolutely not a tax expert. So joining us today is Brandon Hall to help us unpack this whole thing. Brandon is a CPA and a real estate investor himself and his practice is devoted exclusively to helping real estate investors optimize their tax strategies. There’s a lot to dig into in the big beautiful Bill. So let’s bring on Brandon. Brandon, welcome back to On the Market. Thanks for joining us here today.

Brandon:
Thanks Dave, for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Dave:
We are excited to have you on here to help us understand the tax implications for both Americans and specifically for real estate investors. Let’s start big picture. Can you tell us at the highest level what’s in this bill? Uh, from a tax perspective,

Brandon:
I mean, the main thing is that a lot of the 2017 tax cuts in Jobs Act, the Trump tax cuts are now made permanent. So like things like a hundred percent bonus depreciation, for example, is now permanent. Uh, so I would say that’s like the main crux of this bill.

Dave:
Yeah.

Brandon:
There’s also a lot of other provisions in there as well. This bill also fixes some things that were like phasing out, so like r and d tax credits. Um, you can now retroactively apply those.

Dave:
Okay.

Brandon:
Uh, so stuff like that. But that’s the main takeaway is that’s primarily making the 2017 TCJA tax cuts permanent and then adding a few things here and there as well.

Dave:
What was in the 2017 tax bill? Like what are we extending and can maybe tell us? ’cause I think it’s pretty important to know like what would’ve happened if they didn’t get extended as well.

Brandon:
Yeah, well if, if they wouldn’t have gotten extended, a lot of these things were gonna go away. So things like the estate, uh, tax exemption, uh, a hundred percent bonus depreciation was already phasing down. So already in 2025 we were at 40% and there was really no, like, it was gonna go to 20% next year, 0% in 2027. And there wasn’t anything to like bring it back. Right. So it was just gonna be gone.

Dave:
Yeah.

Brandon:
The QBI deduction, the 20% deduction on business income that was phasing out. There’s a ton of stuff, but I mean the, the main thing for real estate investors is the a hundred percent bonus. Sometimes also the QBI deduction as well, the salt changes like that, that was $10,000 and that would actually have been probably a positive, a positive kickback at the end. But the, the end of this cliff, a lot of the provisions were expiring at the end of this year. So it was like a lot of tax planning was starting to happen, but now all of those provisions have been pushed back.

Dave:
Okay. So let’s break those things down first, basically, is any of the TA are tax brackets changing? Because I think that that was one of the main things right? In 2017, like a lot of them got lowered mm-hmm . Um, but that’s cha that’s basically staying where it was from 2017

Brandon:
Yes. Staying where it was, um, locked in. So no, in theory, no future changes.

Dave:
Okay.

Brandon:
All of this, by the way, is permanent until the next big tax legislation comes out. So we don’t, like, when I say permanent, take that with a grain of salt. It’s supposed to be permanent, but you can always change the law. So, but yeah, the, the, the tax brackets, they’re all still gonna be the same as they have been in recent years.

Dave:
For the average American, then, are they going to feel the impact of this? Because I think a lot of the proponents of this bill are saying that this is gonna stimulate the economy. Right? And so I’m just curious, like, is this going to put more cash in the average American’s pocket?

Brandon:
I would say this can help. I don’t think it’s necessarily gonna hurt. I think it is going to help, but I will say that it’s definitely gonna help people that are running businesses or investing in real estate es essentially wealthier people. Mm-hmm . More so than the average Americans. I will say that, that’s my belief. Now, again, I, my belief might change once I see some of the scoring come out.

Dave:
Okay.

Brandon:
Cool. So specific things that are gonna help the average American. This bill was, uh, in my, uh, professional career uniquely focused on families. So they expanded a lot of family credits such as,

Dave:
Yeah,

Brandon:
The employer provided childcare credit. Uh, the credit rate increased, the refundable adoption credit, the amount that you can get refunded increased the enhanced dependent care credit. The exclusion amount is increased. The enhanced child independent care tax credit prior to TCJA, I think it was a thousand dollars. Now it’s $2,000 per child and that’s gonna be retained. Right. So it’s a, a lot of things that are focused on giving back to people that have families. Mm-hmm . There’s the new MAGA account, which is, you know, depending on your political ideology, uh, yeah, may be good, may not be good. But, um, the new MAGA accounts are, uh, it’s a, it’s a tax credit that you receive much like a, um, a Roth IRA. So you would kind of report on your taxes that I opened up an account for my child, I added a thousand dollars to it, and now I get a thousand dollars credit from the government on my taxes as a result of making that investment for my child. So those are gonna be in, in play, I think starting in 2026. So a lot of like family focused things that I do think will help anybody that has families.

Dave:
Maybe you could just explain this is like tax 1 0 1, but explain the difference between a tax and a tax deduction because tax credit’s better, right? That’s, that’s what you want.

Brandon:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tax credit’s definitely better. So a thousand dollars tax deduction is a deduction from my income and tax is then calculated on my income. So if my income is 10,000 and I get a $1,000 deduction, then my taxable income is $9,000. Taxes figured on that. So let’s say it’s 20%, my tax is $1,800. Okay. Now without the deduction, $10,000 of taxable income times 20% of tax would be $2,000. So

Dave:
Yeah,

Brandon:
A $1,000 tax deduction puts 200 bucks back into my pocket. All right. So that’s the benefit of it. Now, a tax credit is you had $10,000 of income, $2,000 in taxes, but now you get a $1,000 tax credit, meaning that your tax is only $1,000. So my tax was 2K, but I get a $1,000 credit, so now I only have to pay a thousand bucks. So a credit is a one for one, uh, dollar for dollar a deduction is whatever the deduction amount is multiplied by your marginal tax bracket.

Dave:
Well, it just sort of underscores for everyone listening to like, do the math on these things and not just like, assuming you’re like, oh, I get a tax credit. Like figure out what it actually means. ’cause as just as a comp, right? We have the, you have the mortgage interest tax deduction, which really does add up to a lot of money. Oh yeah. At least when I’ve run it for my own personal residence. Like that saves you quite a lot of money, especially upfront in your mortgage when you’re paying predominantly interest. That could be a really good thing. So just do the math.

Brandon:
We, we are in an age where AI creates content and people just post the content. Okay. Up to the highest office . So

Dave:
Yes,

Brandon:
It doesn’t really matter who’s saying what at this point. You really have to understand that AI is, is such a big part of everybody’s content creation process now that you really should be asking, how do I know this is true?

Dave:
Yeah.

Brandon:
You just, you just have to be careful. It’s, it’s actually crazy

Dave:
. Yeah, no, it’s not. It, it is really a little scary. So you need to be careful and obviously we’ll get better, but double check it. Yeah, double check. I, I totally

Brandon:
Agree. Yes.

Dave:
But let’s talk about QBI. ’cause I think that’s one of the coolest things available for real estate investors that I don’t hear people talk about it very much. Can you, can you tell us a little bit about it?

Brandon:
Yeah, so, so the QBI I deduction is the qualified business income deduction. And basically for every dollar of business income that you generate, you get a 20% deduction on every dollar. You don’t have to jump through any hoops. If you generate like a hundred thousand dollars of business income and you get a, you get the QBI deduction of $20,000, then you get to pay taxes on $80,000 of business income. Now, there are rules as it pertains to real estate. So the real estate has to be a real trader business. And there’s a whole set of subset, there’s a whole subset of rules that go through what exactly this is. There’s, there’s participation standards as part of those rules. You cannot be a, uh, an SSTB, which is specialized service trader. So an accounting firm for example, can’t qualify for something like this. There are also phase out limits in terms of income. So real estate investors that have been doing this for a while sometimes find that they can’t actually qualify for the QBI deduction because they make too much money. And that’s a reality for a lot of, a lot of real estate investors too. So if you’re just hearing about this and you’re like, why has my accountant ever told me? It’s probably just because you’ve been phased out. Um, and there’s not much that you can necessarily do to fix that potentially.

Dave:
Yeah. That’s disappointing though. ’cause my understanding was the whole idea behind this was to sort of equalize the cuts that were given to large corporations, like C corp were getting this big tax cut in 2017. It was like, oh, the small businesses sort of like this was the way to equalize that. Right. Wasn’t that at least the logic behind

Brandon:
It? Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, I would say that actually worked out pretty well. So the whole idea was the QBI deduction being 20%. We’ve got the, the lower corporate tax rate that’s gonna prevent business owners from just flipping their businesses over to corporate taxes. Right? So, so making themselves a C corporation to benefit from that lower, lower tax rate, I would say it largely accomplished that purpose. So business owners have been getting, have been claiming this QBI deduction, it passes through it, it works really well. And real estate investors, I guess can, can still claim it, but most real estate investors, uh, I’ll, I’ll amend my prior statement in that there is an income phase out. However, the main reason that real estate investors don’t really benefit from this is because most real estate investors are using bonus depreciation to create large tax losses. Thus there is no business income,

Dave:
Right. For

Brandon:
QBI purposes coming from their real estate. Uh, but if you can create income from your real estate, then you can absolutely check out QBI and potentially use some of that as well.

Dave:
Yeah. ’cause I was thinking about like a flipper, right? Would would it qualify for this? Like if you had a flipping business Yeah. Um, and you’re not, ’cause then you’re probably not getting bonus depreciation, right? So you’re, you’re flipping it and it’s normally would be treated as ordinary income or passed through an LLC, but you might be able to use this for that kind of thing.

Brandon:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Most businesses qualify, uh, except for those specialized service trader businesses. Real estate agents, I believe at one point were categorized as SST bs. But they’ve got a great lobby and they were even eventually, uh, stripped out of that, I believe. But business, yeah, absolutely. Flippers, definitely.

Dave:
All right, well let’s turn to the big topic, which of course is bonus depreciation, but we do need to take one quick break. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to On the Market. I’m here with accountant, CPA tax expert for real estate investors. Brandon Hall, we were talking about the new one. Big beautiful bill act that just got signed by President Trump into law over the past weekend. We’ve talked a little bit about high level what the tax bill has, what it doesn’t for real estate investors. I think the main thing most people are looking for is bonus depreciation. Brandon, maybe just give us a little background if people haven’t listened to previous episodes you’ve been on. What is bonus depreciation?

Brandon:
Bonus appreciation, uh, has, has existed for a long time in 2017, the 2017 TCJA increased bonus depreciation from 50% to 100%. And then there was a phase down that was starting, uh, in 2023. So in 2023, bonus depreciation would drop from a hundred percent to 80%. 2024, it would be 60%, 20, 25. This year it’s 40%, 20% in 26, and then 0% in 2027. So basically from 2017 to 2022, you could buy real estate and benefit from 100% bonus depreciation. Now, the way that this actually works is, first you have to get a cost segregation study performed, because when you buy a property, there are components of the property that don’t last 27 and a half years or 39 years in the event of commercial property. And that’s where, when, how long property’s typically depreciated, right? So I buy a million dollar property, uh, I have to allocate value to land dirt does not fall apart over time.
And that is what ultimately depreciation is meant to track, is the deterioration of your components over time. So I buy a million dollar property, uh, 20% is land, which is 200 K. So I push $200,000 out of this depreciation bucket. I’m left with $800,000. If it’s a residential property, I do 800,000 divided by 27 and a half. That’s my annual depreciation expense. If it’s a commercial property, I do $800,000 divided by 39 years. That’s my annual depreciation expense. What a cost segregation study does is it says, Hey, you bought a million dollar property, you push $200,000 out to land, you, you’re left with 800 K. But the reality is, is that there’s a lot of components inside this building that make up this building that are not going to last 27 and a half or 39 years. So let’s identify those components and let’s depreciate them over a faster time period.
And the result of a cost segregation study is that you get these value allocations to five year, uh, schedules, seven year schedules, 15 year schedules, and then the remainder is still in that 27 and a half or 39 years. And when you do a cost segregation, depending on the building type, you could generally expect to see 20 to 30% of the, of the value be allocated to five, seven, and 15 year property. So it’s highly advantageous, right? Like, like if I were to allocate, just to make it simple, um, well, I’m gonna make it simple. I’m gonna have to pull the calculate

Dave:
Not simple enough to do it in your head.

Brandon:
, if, if we were to allocate, um, let’s actually try to keep it simple. So let’s say of the 800 k, $270,000 gets allocated to five year property.

Dave:
Okay.

Brandon:
Alright. So $270,000 over five years is $54,000 a year.

Dave:
Okay.

Brandon:
All right. And that’s, and I, if you’ve got any accountants listening to this, I know that there’s accelerated depreciation, but I’m just trying to keep it simple.

Dave:
Yeah, just an example. Lay off them.

Brandon:
270 k allocated the five year schedule. Now you have $270,000 being depreciated $54,000 a year for five years. Now if you didn’t do this reallocation, the $270,000 is depreciated over 27 and a half years. So you get a $10,000 a year. So you get $10,000 a year for 27 and a half years, or you can get 54 KA year for five years. Now do net present value calculation, time value of money, most of the time you’re going to want to get the 50 4K for five years. Yeah. So that’s why cost segregation studies exist. We are accelerating the recognition of depreciation and because we get a larger deduction, 50 4K versus 10 for five years, we get larger tax savings that we can then go reinvest and increase the snowball of the wealth building.

Dave:
Yep.

Brandon:
Or the wealth building snowball, right?

Dave:
Yes.

Brandon:
So a hundred percent bonus depreciation, that’s where this comes in, applies to all components with a useful life of less than 20 years. Now I just said on an 800 K building, you’d expect 20 to 30% of the value to be allocated to five, seven, and 15 year property, which is all less than 20 years. Thus it all qualifies for bonus depreciation. So where I, where we just kinda went through this example of 270 k for this, 50 4K per year for five years. Now it’s 270 K in year one.

Dave:
Yep.

Brandon:
Okay. And that’s the power bonus depreciation. So now I don’t have to, I don’t have to take it over five years. I get it all today.

Dave:
That’s incredible.

Brandon:
Yeah. Whatever allocation I can make to 5 7, 7 15 year property. So cost segregation studies, the value of them skyrocket.

Dave:
I have a few questions about this. So I think the first thing everyone needs to know is that this basically just got extended right? It was phasing out over time and is in the new bail, Brandon, is it getting phased out again or is it just continuous a hundred percent indefinitely?

Brandon:
A hundred percent indefinitely, no phase outs. It’s there forever until somebody needs a pay for and they need to knock it down.

Dave:
Okay, got

Brandon:
It. And they rewrite the law.

Dave:
And does every kind of real estate investor benefit from this or do you have to be a real estate professional?

Brandon:
Uh, you do not have to be a real estate professional, but if you are a real estate professional, you will receive more benefits in the context of, uh, I get the tax savings today and I get to realize the full extent today.

Dave:
Okay.

Brandon:
But if you’re not a real estate professional, and if you’re not running the short-term rental loophole, which is all over social media now a hundred percent bonus depreciation can absolutely help you. You just have to be a little more strategic about it, right? Mm-hmm . So the reason that you have to be a little bit more strategic is because bonus depreciation ultimately creates losses. So what Dave kind of jumped to was real estate professional status to use the losses. If you, if you aren’t a real estate professional and if you can’t otherwise make the losses non-passive, then the losses created from investing in real estate are gonna be considered passive losses. And passive losses can only offset passive income. A lot of real estate investors, especially when they’re starting out, don’t have passive income. My W2 income is not passive ’cause I’m materially participating in that my business income is not passive because I’m materially participating in that.
So we don’t really have passive income sources, interest, capital gains, dividends, all of that is also considered not passive. I know that sounds weird, but that’s how the law is written. The whole purpose of these rules is to prevent rich people from using rental real estate to offset the regular income. So it kind of starts to make sense in that context. So if you use a hundred percent bonus depreciation to create large tax losses, uh, you gotta ask, can I use the tax losses? And if the answer is no, I can’t because they’re passive, you don’t lose them. They get suspended on your tax returns and they can be useful at some later point. Like if I want to go sell a rental, for example, the gain on sale is considered passive income. So, so, so it flows through to this calculation where it would unlock those losses that have been suspended and are passive.

Dave:
Got it.

Brandon:
So I get flexibility in the sales decision. I don’t have to do it 10 31 exchange, I can just sell.

Dave:
Yep.

Brandon:
I did that this year actually personally. So there, you know, you don’t like totally lose the benefits, but it’s definitely not as optimal as being able to claim everything right now for most people.

Dave:
And how much does one of these segregation studies usually cost?

Brandon:
Uh, it depends. They really, it really depends. , lemme run through the different levels. Um, so there are $500 there, DIY software options. You have to plug everything in yourself. I always recommend that you buy the audit insurance. It’s probably an extra 150 bucks. Some of ’em include it, but buy the audit insurance and, uh, that’s an option. The next level of option is to do like a virtual site visit. So you would kind of, you would get on with a professional and the professional would tell you to walk around the property, take pictures of certain manufacturer tags on the, on the different pieces of equipment that you have and map things out and stuff like that. So, so you’re doing the virtual video walkthrough. Somebody on, on the other side of the zoom is recording everything for you, and then they’re gonna go perform the study by hand.
And then you have the higher end studies where they will fly somebody out to your property and walk it. At the end of the day, the answer is, it depends on your risk tolerance. So we have, um, been the, uh, beneficiary, I guess all of our content has kind of come back to us in a very positive way in the sense that real estate investors that didn’t wanna bite on our, like tax planning engagements, um, they go use somebody else and then, but they eventually circle back around to us when they’re getting audited . Yeah. So we could still help them in a, in a roundabout way. Yeah. and, uh, we have, we have successfully defended, uh, the software studies, the virtual studies, and the real studies. I will tell you that the real studies, the big ones where they walk through your property are pretty much just pushed through, uh, at the IRS office, the software studies are always challenged. The virtual studies are challenged a lot as well. Now, it doesn’t say that anyone’s necessarily more or less or better or worse. Well, the big studies are definitely more comprehensive and, and that’s, and they’re more, they’re higher trust and I guess in the auditor’s eyes. And so all that means is that if you go downstream when you get audited, you’ll probably be paying for it at that point in stress and money.

Dave:
And how long do they take if someone wanted to do something like this?

Brandon:
Uh, I mean, you can get really fast turnarounds like the DIY stuff’s, instantaneous full study. I mean, once they do the walkthrough, it’s probably 48 to 72 hours to really get it all into their system and, and push out a report.

Dave:
Okay. So that’s bonus depreciation, or did I miss anything else there, Brandon, that do you think folks should know?

Brandon:
I just wanna reiterate that industrial piece is if you’re the operator of some sort of production based, uh, business and you are using an industrial warehouse or even a portion of that, that portion allocated to your business can be fully expensed under a hundred percent bonus. So there’s no, like, there’s no 39 year component to that anymore, which is, um, wow. Fascinating. Yeah, it’s, it’s very interesting. Very interesting.

Dave:
All right. We do have to take a quick break, but we’ll have more with Brandon and the one big beautiful bill act right after this. Welcome back to On the Market. I’m here with CPA and investor Brandon Hall talking about the tax implications in the one big beautiful Bill act.

Brandon:
So another big one that probably will impact listeners of this show, the SALT deduction was raised from 10 to $40,000.

Dave:
Yeah, that’s a big one. So maybe just explain salt deductions in the first place.

Brandon:
Yeah. So prior to 2017, a lot of taxpayers itemized meaning that they had their income. They were, they put their W2 on their 10 40, then they go fill out Schedule A where they report their mortgage interest, all their property taxes, and then their state and local income taxes. One of the pay force for the 2017 Tax Codes and Jobs Act was to reduce people’s ability to deduct their state and local income taxes. So there was a cap put on state and local income taxes of $10,000. And so, you know, if you’re out in California and you’re making $500,000 a year, you’re probably paying 60, $70,000 in California state taxes that you used to be able to deduct, but now you’re limited to 10 K. Yeah. Like overnight costs a lot of people, a lot of money, um, making that change.

Dave:
Yeah.

Brandon:
But now that cap has been raised to $40,000, and that is gonna be through 2030, which will then drop back to 10 K again. So we’re gonna have this fight again at some later point. The other one too is that, uh, QSBS, if we have anybody in the tech space here, uh, listening to this show, uh, you should go and, and review some of the qsb. I, I don’t, we don’t have to get into it today, but the, the QSBS provisions have gotten pretty sweet.

Dave:
What does that stand for? QSBS

Brandon:
Qualified Small Business stock. Okay. So it’s like if you, if you’re an employee of a, uh, startup and uh, they’re giving you a bunch of stock, it’s really advantageous for people if they meet the hold period requirements because whenever that liquidates, they can wipe out all of their tax on all of their upside. Oh, okay. A lot of their upside. Uh, but those provisions have changed a little bit. So if that’s relevant to you, make sure you touch base with your

Dave:
Advisor. Well, Brandon, thank you so much for being here. This has been super helpful.

Brandon:
No problem, Dave. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Dave:
And just for everyone out there, just as a reminder, check with your accountant, if you have one. Learn everything you can about this. ’cause there definitely are some provisions in there that can be beneficial to you as a real estate, as a real estate agent, a small business owner. These are important things, and I know I am very guilty of overlooking tax strategy early in my investing career, but I think as you progress as an investor, you realize how important and how advantageous this can be to you. So go talk to your tax strategist or your ta, your CPA, or if you’re a DIY, or just do, do yourself a favor and, and go read the bill and, and, uh, check all, like Brandon said, make sure not to just look at an AI study without double checking it, but learn all these advantages. They could save you hundreds, thousands, 10 thousands of dollars in the next year or two if you apply this. Right. So this is a, a no-brainer. It’s the law. You’re allowed to do all of this. You should absolutely go and take advantage of it. All right. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode of On The Market. We’ll see you next time. I.

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This year, real estate investors and homeowners alike are closely watching high mortgage rates, yet many may not fully understand the mortgage spread—the difference between the 30-year fixed mortgage rate and the 10-year Treasury rate. This spread plays a significant role in determining borrowing costs and can impact investment strategies, making it essential for real estate investors to understand its implications.

What is the Mortgage Spread?

The mortgage spread is the difference between the 30-year fixed mortgage rate and the 10-year Treasury bond yield. This spread exists because mortgage lenders assume additional risk compared to the U.S. government, which issues Treasury bonds considered risk-free. The spread reflects factors such as:

  • Credit risk – The possibility that borrowers may default on their loans
  • Inflation expectations – Higher inflation can erode the purchasing power of long-term payments, prompting lenders to demand higher rates
  • Federal Reserve policy – Interest rate decisions and monetary policy influence both Treasury yields and mortgage rates
  • Market liquidity – When financial markets face uncertainty or disruptions, mortgage rates may rise relative to Treasuries, widening the spread

Historical Trends in the Mortgage Spread

Using data from Freddie Mac (30-year mortgage rate) and the Federal Reserve Economic Data (FRED) (10-year Treasury rate), we can see that the mortgage spread fluctuates over time:

  • 1980s: The spread remained relatively stable, averaging around 1.5% to 2%, despite high interest rates
  • 2008 Financial Crisis: The spread jumped to over 3% due to extreme market uncertainty and tighter lending standards
  • 2020 COVID-19 Pandemic: Initially, the spread spiked above 2.5% but later declined as the Federal Reserve intervened
  • 2023-2025: The spread has remained historically elevated, fluctuating between 2.5% and 3%, as inflation and Federal Reserve policies continue to influence investor sentiment

How It Impacts Real Estate Investors

For real estate investors, a widening mortgage spread means higher borrowing costs, making financing properties more expensive. However, it also signals potential opportunities for cash buyers and investors leveraging 1031 exchanges to acquire properties without being as affected by rising interest rates.

Key takeaways for investors

  1. Higher spreads mean higher borrowing costs, which can influence investment strategies, especially for those leveraging financing.
  2. Markets with growing inventory and price reductions (such as Florida and Texas) may offer more favorable buying conditions for investors.
  3. Cash buyers and 1031 exchange investors can benefit by avoiding high mortgage rates and reallocating capital efficiently.

Leveraging a 1031 exchange to Navigate Today’s Market

For investors looking to diversify their real estate portfolio tax-deferred, a 1031 exchange could be an effective strategy. Equity 1031 Exchange provides Qualified Intermediary services for investors seeking to reinvest proceeds from the sale of one investment property into another while deferring capital gains taxes.

Understanding the mortgage spread is crucial for real estate investors navigating today’s interest rate environment. By staying informed on key financial indicators, market conditions, and investment strategies like 1031 exchanges, investors can make more confident and strategic decisions.

To learn more about using a 1031 exchange to defer taxes on your next real estate investment, visit getequity1031.com.

Equity Trust Company is a directed custodian and does not provide tax, legal, or investment advice. Any information communicated by Equity Trust is for educational purposes only, and should not be construed as tax, legal, or investment advice. Whenever making an investment decision, please consult with your tax attorney or financial professional.

The role of Equity 1031 Exchange, LLC (formerly Midland 1031, LLC) as Qualified Intermediary is limited to acting as qualified intermediary within the meaning of Regulations section 1.1031(k)-1(g)(4) for Federal and state income tax purposes. In this regard, Equity 1031 Exchange is not providing other legal, investment, or due diligence services. The taxpayer/exchanger must direct all investment transactions and choose the investment(s) for the exchange. Nothing contained herein shall be construed as investment, legal, tax or financial advice or as a guarantee, endorsement, or certification of any investments, legal effect or tax consequences of the transfer, conveyance and exchange of the Relinquished Property and/or the Replacement Property.

BiggerPockets/PassivePockets is not affiliated in any way with Equity Trust Company or any of Equity’s family of companies. Opinions or ideas expressed by BiggerPockets/PassivePockets are not necessarily those of Equity Trust Company nor do they reflect their views or endorsement. The information provided by Equity Trust Company is for educational purposes only. Equity Trust Company, and their affiliates, representatives and officers do not provide legal or tax advice. Investing involves risk, including possible loss of principal. Please consult your tax and legal advisors before making investment decisions. Equity Trust and Bigger Pockets/Passive Pockets may receive referral fees for any services performed as a result of being referred opportunities.



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Buying a regular rental property can provide steady, predictable income, but if you’re looking for something more lucrative, we’ve got the perfect strategy for you. Today’s guest used it to build a real estate business that brings in $800,000 in annual revenue. The best part? It requires less money than you might think. Tune in to hear how he did it—and how YOU can, too!

Welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie podcast! Ahead of the release of his new book, The Glamping Investor, Garrett Brown joins the show to share how you can get started with unique stays in 2025. Garrett used to buy condos in Houston, Texas, but when the market shifted, so did his investing strategy. Pivoting unlocked massive profits, and today, he owns some of his market’s top-rated glamping destinations—with nightly rates comparable to five-star hotels!

In this episode, he’ll cover everything from finding “hackable” land and picking a short-term rental market to funding your projects and avoiding permitting nightmares. You won’t want to miss gems like his 60/30/10 rule for choosing a location and the secret to putting very little money down on a piece of land with endless potential!

Ashley Kehr:
Do you think glamping is just a trendy buzzword? Today’s guest turned tents, domes, and off-grid cabins into a business doing nearly 800 K per year with minimal upfront capital, and he’s going to help rookie investors see how raw land can unlock real estate wealth.

Tony Robinson:
Today we’re talking with Garrett Brown, a short-term rental investor who pivoted from condos in Houston to building one of the top rated glamping destinations in the entire state of Texas. So if you want creative cashflow with lower costs, this episode is your blueprint.

Ashley Kehr:
This is the Real Estate Rookie podcast. I’m Ashley Care,

Tony Robinson:
And I am Tony j Robinson. And let’s give a big warm welcome to Garrett. Garrett, thank you for jumping on with us today, man. Super excited to get into it.

Garrett Brown:
Thank y’all for having me on. I’m always love talking glamping and always love talking with you all, so it’s a perfect combination.

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, Garrett, usually you’re a co-host, but I think this is the first time you’ve actually been a guest on the show.

Garrett Brown:
Yeah, it’s been a while before. I worked at BiggerPockets probably a couple years ago. I was a long time ago, but it’s been a while to be a guest on there and I’m excited to tell my story and hopefully incentivize some rookies out there to take action in the glamping space.

Ashley Kehr:
Wait, were you on rookie before?

Garrett Brown:
Probably a few years ago. That’s actually how I,

Ashley Kehr:
God, I feel so bad that I don’t remember that

Garrett Brown:
Y’all do so many and talk to so many different people. I do not take offense to that at all because

Ashley Kehr:
I mean, obviously I’m going to cut this part out, but I used to have one of our old producers, Daniel, whenever we would go to meetups or be at conferences, I would always have him when he would introduce me to someone say, do you remember so-and-so on the podcast? Because so many times I would go like, oh, it’s so nice to meet you. And they would say, oh, I actually was a guest

Garrett Brown:
When I was even on, when Eric and Dan, I think Eric and Daniel worked together. I can’t remember, but I remember Eric was the main guy I talked to. But yeah, no, so it is been quite a while.

Ashley Kehr:
Okay, so Garrett, what actually got you into glamping and why did you pivot from traditional short-term rentals?

Garrett Brown:
Yeah, I got into short-term rentals probably like a lot. Well, a lot of people got into ’em during the pandemic boom and things there, but I got into it about 2018. I was a real estate agent for years before I was doing fix and flips, buy and holds, and I was doing okay. Some were wins, some were bigger losses. And so I heard about the Airbnb thing going on and I was like, all right, let me try my hand with this. And I got a really good deal on a few small condos in downtown Houston. This was when back when you could put up an air mattress and do well on Airbnb at that point. And so it was going okay, and then the pandemic hit and all the big institutional money started coming into the space. And at that point for just a one bedroom downtown Conroe, I mean downtown condo in Houston, you’re not going to be able to compete there.
All you can do is drop your price pretty much with some of these big hedge funds and things coming in. So I saw the writing on the wall, I was going on YouTube University and kind of seeing what was out there and I love creative things. I have a music passion. I had a music studio before I did real estate and I was like, how could I tie my passion for real estate with my creative passion? And this thing glamping came up to me and I’m like, okay, what exactly is that? Is it glamorous camping? Whatever you want to call it? I was interested. I love nature as well, and started going down that path. I saw the almost just crazy cashflow that was coming in on some of these places with the minimal investment that was needed to get it started. So I started making my way and figured out how could I do this?
And raw land is tough to get a loan on. It’s tough to usually a lot of people buy it cash. I had some cash saved up about $50,000, but not enough to get a piece of land that I really was interested in. So I learned about this thing called land hacking, which is a form of glamping. They’re all kind of mutually tied together of sorts. And land hacking is essentially when you find a house similar to house hacking, which of most of the BiggerPockets audience might know about that, where you take a house and you rent out each room. Land hacking is essentially the same, but you get a house on a piece of land, get a mortgage for it, it’s a lot easier to get a mortgage on a house already there. The utilities are already there. And I decided like, okay, I’m going to build little bitty cabins on these different parts of the land and that will help me pay my mortgage down, help me add equity value to the property. And it just kind of exploded from there to a myriad of different ways that I learned a lot of lessons and had a lot of wins just from that endeavor that I took on from there.

Ashley Kehr:
Garrett, I have to imagine that if worst case scenario you have a property that has a rental unit on it, I’m assuming you rented out that house. So even if the glamping didn’t work out, you at least have some source of revenue on this property or the ability to sell a single family home.

Garrett Brown:
The cool thing about land hacking, you can go the glamping route where you’re putting cabins and tents and prefab tiny homes or whatever you want to do on this land, but you always have that house on the property. And one thing I forgot to mention a little bit ago is I found a house that needed a little bit of work, nothing crazy, but I didn’t find a pristine house that was ready to go and I couldn’t force some appreciation into it. So I found a house, we bought it for about $550,000. I’ll break down some of the numbers to it, and it had 11 acres on it, and the worst I thought was I can make it a long-term rental if I wanted to. It probably wouldn’t cashflow as well at that price point, you probably need to find something a little less, but I knew I could renovate the bathroom sum.
We took out the carpet and put LVP flooring throughout it. All these were already adding to the equity value, but I knew I had the land and I could have turned it into RV pads, I could build a self-storage there. I could build more long-term rentals. You don’t even have to go the short-term rental route if you don’t want to. I’ve seen people build tiny owned communities that are for long-term rentals only. And so I knew I had a big exit strategy. And then at the same time, I’m acquiring land that is not far. It is about 45 minutes from Houston, Texas that is going to be in one of the faster appreciating areas around basically because I knew people are gradually starting to expand their bubble to get outside of the downtown areas. And as it started going along, not everybody will take the same route that I did.
Sometimes if you’re going the investment route on it, you’re going to have to put 20 or 25% down. But I used an owner occupied loan. I sold those condos that I mentioned and sold my townhouse. Actually, I took a big swing with this, but I knew it was going to pay off. I took some of that money. It was about $50,000 by the time I got it done, I got into that house for 5% down. It was an owner occupied loan. So technically I had to live in there for a year, which I did because I was building out the cabins. But doing that with just 5% down, I only had to put 22,000 down to acquire this house and all of this land that would’ve probably cost me. I would’ve only if I was just getting raw land, I would’ve had to put 200 or $250,000 down and then I wouldn’t have had the funds to get some utilities to the property, build out some of these cabins and really start to bring up the cashflow and bring out the equity appreciation that was there. So that is just how I kind of saw where the writing was on the wall for it.

Tony Robinson:
So here, your recommendation to Ricky’s who are looking to maybe do glamping building it out is reducing their costs by finding a piece of land that already has a house on it to get more favorable financing. And I think that’s a great strategy because I think when a lot of folks think about building, the only thing that comes to mind for them is raw land, but there’s not only is the financing then more expensive, but then there’s also the additional cost of getting that land ready to be built on. Maybe you have to grade, maybe you have to get utilities, maybe you have to get wells run or septic tanks or whatever it may be. But if there was a home on that piece of land already, hopefully a lot of that infrastructure costs is taken care of. So I want to learn more about the challenges around the utilities and building it out. But first, just to clarify for all the Ricky’s who maybe aren’t familiar with the phrase glamping, what exactly does that mean and how is it different from traditional short-term rental investing?

Garrett Brown:
So again, it’s one of those things that you can call it what you want. I think glamping came from glamorous camping, but it’s essentially luxury camping to where you’re providing most likely a utility such as a bathroom nearby that has a flushable toilet. You have electricity on the property, you have running water, usually hot water is a big thing of glamping. And now even now you probably have wifi for the guests. There’s probably a memory foam bed inside the units. Little things like that that are go above and beyond the luxury side of just slapping up a tent in a campground that people are traditionally thinking of. And you have maybe one public bathroom that’s 500 yards away that everybody shares, and then you have no electricity capabilities and things there. So we really wanted to emphasize the luxury side of glamping when we were building these out.
And because those utilities were at the house, I’ve heard people get quotes for bringing electricity to a property like raw land of a hundred thousand dollars, $200,000, just insane amounts that you couldn’t even comprehend unless you have a big budget or hedge fund behind you. And with my property having electricity already there, it costs me $5,000 extra to bring electricity to my first cabin as opposed to the 20, 30, $40,000 quotes I would’ve gotten from just trying to find a piece of land and then develop it and worry about the roadwork. That’s another thing people underestimate is how expensive roadwork is. I already had a road going to the property, and so I just added on some more gravel roads to that, and it was so much cheaper than spending a hundred thousand dollars, $200,000 and having the county have to tell me where I can put the road, how big it has to be because it’s already been set there for me. So it was definitely a very smart move on my part to figure out that nuance of when you’re looking into the land purchase portion of it.

Ashley Kehr:
So for the glamping part of it, once you’ve purchased your property, you’ve got your financing on it. Are there any ways to actually finance the tents or the domes or whatever you’re putting onto the property?

Garrett Brown:
There actually is now. It’s kind of amazing how fast this space has grown in the past four years, five years since I’ve been in it. When I first got into it, there wasn’t as many options. It was just starting to become a little more popular. My first cabin, I call it a cabin, but I got a geodome for my first property from a company called Pacific Domes that’s in Oregon. There’s a lot of dome companies. You could buy one from Alibaba for a thousand dollars, $2,000, it’s probably going to fall apart the next week that you put it together. But I went with Pacific Domes. I had a great reputation. It was about $10,000 for this dome when I bought it. They didn’t have options at the time, but now I know that there are tons of financing options out there for the domes. I think even Pacific domes offers their own.
But the other really cool thing that I’ve even been exploring as I’ve been expanding and adding more sites is I even today this morning, put on a deposit on a new tiny house. It’s called a park model, which means it comes on a trailer with wheels and you can get those financed just like a car or an RV loan, and it’s very simple to do because they’re also very easy to repossess if they want to take it off your property. So it’s actually surprising how easy that is. So yeah, the financing options have exploded in the past few years. So we can touch into that and I’m always happy to give recommendations, but you’ll be surprised at how many tiny home builds unique builds, geo domes, yurts, everything out there now offer financing because they see that this is the way the business model is growing for them as well too. So it shouldn’t be something intimidating, but if you can buy it cash, that’s awesome, but if you can leverage some of that financing and reserve some of your cash to either enhance the site or just have as cash reserves, that’s a great method to go down as well.

Tony Robinson:
Garrett, I’m super excited to keep diving into the world of glamping. It is part of the short-term rental space that I’ve never personally explored. So I want to break down exactly how to find the right land, what kind of structures work best, which you’ve touched on a little bit already, and really how to run the numbers on these glamping structures, especially if you’ve never done this type of deal before.

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Tony Robinson:
Alright, so we’re back with Garrett. So Garrett, I want to talk about the actual build out, but before we do, I guess I just have one question and I’m sure a lot of the Ricky audience is thinking this as well. Who the heck is paying money to come stay in a tent? What is your typical demographic of traveler? So

Garrett Brown:
Every one of the main things you have to decide when you’re getting into this space is what your vision is long-term for the property and who your guest avatar or your target guest even is. Because there’s some glamping sites that are catered to families and they built it out like that. And there’s some glamping sites that are catered to couples or romantic getaways, and there are some that are more just maybe a little more traditional leaning towards the camping side with a little bit of luxury that kind of target more of a mass audience. And so I knew that I went and traveled, one of my biggest pieces of advice is go stay in some of these structures nearby. Go find glamping sites near you or campgrounds and things and go try out some of these unique structures. I went and stayed in a geodome in Arizona near the Grand Canyon when I was looking, I went and stayed in some tiny homes.
I went and stayed in different places to see what they were doing that I liked, what they were doing that I didn’t personally enjoy as a guest. And so I decided that I really wanted to tap into the higher end luxury market of the couples romantic getaways. And the biggest part of it that I didn’t mention before that is you just need to build an experience that caters to that guest you’re trying to attract. So I went to some facilities and they would have 20 or 30 domes stacked up right beside each other, and there’s a lot of those out there. I went to some that was way more spaced out and you had one cabin on a couple acres and then another cabin that was much further away. And both of those could be successful business models. Again, it goes back to your goals and envision, but I decided that I wanted less.
I wanted less structures on my property, but I was going to command a higher rate. Each one was going to have their own private amenities, and so I knew that I was going to be able to target and in the glamping field, I will just go ahead and say that I had to be taught this. I didn’t realize it at first. Women dominate this market for the booking side of it. If you look at our social media feed there, it’s about 80 to 85% women that are on our feed. And the main reason, and I’ve talked to tons of people, glamping experts all over the world, and they all say the same thing, that guys, we plan a trip about a week ahead in advance. Women are planning the trip a year or two in advance, and so that’s how you get those long lead times, long bookings.
And so we started to cater to our audience, which we knew was going to be somebody that loved nature, somebody that liked to explore, and that was also near a major city. That’s one thing that I try to talk about a lot, and I mentioned it in the guide that I wrote for BiggerPockets coming out soon called the Glamping Investor that it’s called the 60 30 10 rule that I have. And so I knew that I needed to be around 60 minutes from a major city, and when I say major city, 500,000 plus people, the more cities nearby the better 30 minutes from some type of national, regional or state attraction. So that way that at least people from that city are going to come out to that area routinely and have something to do. We obviously want to build the experience for them on site that they never want to leave.
But all the other places around you will draw in even more people and make sure you have a pretty decent flow of guests coming through. And then the 10 of it is just 10 minutes from some type of civilization, dollar General, a gas station. There’s land out there that people will see and it’s three or four hours from everywhere and people are like, oh, it’s so cheap. I can buy that and it’s going to be great. And it’s like, yeah, it’s a reason that you can buy 20 acres for $10,000 in this town because nobody is ever going to travel there. So we just looked in the analytics of it. I found the place I found ended up being 45 minutes from Houston, Texas, and it’s two hours from Dallas and Austin and all the other bigger sites. It’s near the second largest lake in Texas and it’s also near a national forest.
And I have the reason it is near a Dollar General as well, because the reason that’s so valuable is because if you’re not near any of these, how are you going to get cleaners to come out there? How are you going to get supplies? How are you going to get handy people? The further they have to travel, the more expensive it becomes and the harder it becomes to actually keep them. So I thought about that while I was building out the entire business and I thought about my guest avatar to decide on exactly how I wanted to build it, what amenities I wanted to add, and that helped us to get an idea of the nightly rate that we could attract. So then once we kind of set that foundation, we have crushed it and definitely gotten, we make as much per night as a five star hotel basically does because we built out that experience and we also didn’t put each structure on top of each other. But again, they’re both good business structures just wasn’t for me personally.

Ashley Kehr:
Garrett, you literally described the reason my A-Frame is successful because it meets that 60, 30, 10 literally almost to the minute it meets that because we did not think it was going to be successful. Well, as successful as it is, we obviously thought it was going to be an investment, but it has done better than we expected. And it is a perfect example of that rule that you have come up with because it proves it. It proves that that actually works if you follow that rule. And the Dollar General thing I laugh at because that is the closest store to there. There’s no Walmart or Target or anything in the town, but there is a Dollar General and part of Dollar General’s model is that they find towns where you don’t have a Walmart and a Target and they go in and drop their buildings into there and you can still get your essentials. And in our A-frame it’s very limited cooking. We don’t have an oven, we have a stove top that you can cook on, but I’m assuming that there’s other glamping tents or different glamping things that don’t have huge kitchens for people to cook on. So being 10 minutes within civilization so you can go out to eat things like that is also important.

Garrett Brown:
It’s good for the guests too. We find that tons of people on our social media all the time are like, oh, I’m scared to go out there. It’s in the middle of nowhere and things like that. And then when we kind of relay what exactly is around it and all these things, they start to get a little more at ease. Nobody wants to just be in the middle of nowhere, what nothing around, and then you’re out of paper towels and then they got to drive 45 minutes to figure out the paper towels. And so that sounds like a nightmare to me is something I didn’t personally want to find out how that would happen if it did happen to me. So

Ashley Kehr:
You know what, that just made me think I should find out if Instacart will deliver to that property because that would be a really good thing to add into the listing is this does have Instacart so that you could order stuff.

Garrett Brown:
My second glance site that we just opened up near Austin is a little bit bigger of a town, a little closer to Austin and my first glance site, we can get Uber Eats and things like that out there. It’s much harder. It takes a lot longer, but the new site near Austin, it is the biggest revelation ever that if I need something I can just Instacart it or Uber eats it to the guests. A guest had ants inside and we have pest control and all that and sometimes just things happen in nature and I instantly, I UberEATS him some ants spray and we turned a bad situation into a five star stay with just that. So that was amazing. Don’t have that luxury everywhere, but if you do, oh, that is definitely a top tier a minute you’d be able to have for your own self.

Ashley Kehr:
I can completely relate on a personal level because I have never lived in a house that can get DoorDash or Uber Eats. Never in my whole life until I bought my lake house and at the lake house, I am spoiled to death and it started to get out of control that for the first time in my life I could DoorDash stuff and I really had to cut back, but it was funny. Yeah,

Tony Robinson:
That’s hilarious. I can order something on Amazon at 8:00 AM and it’ll be at my house for 2:00 PM It’s insane. The infrastructure that we have out here,

Ashley Kehr:
It’ll be recording a podcast until we be like, okay, we got five minutes. I’m going to run a Starbucks. I’m like, okay, if you give me 45 minutes, I can do this.

Garrett Brown:
Yeah, I’ll run to the gas station around the corner and get my coffee over here.

Tony Robinson:
Yeah, I’m spoiled down here in SoCal. But Garrett, I want to talk a little bit about evaluating the deal because we get the rule right, 60 30, 10, which is super important just from a practical standpoint for the guest, but how do you as the investor evaluate the potential of AGL site? I think when we think about traditional long-term rentals, it’s a much more straightforward process to predict what the income will be because you just look for other properties of the similar size and functionality of yours and see what they’re renting for. But if I want to go outside of Austin and build a Glamp site filled with Yurts and domes, I may not have as many other yurts and domes to compare to. So what is the process for effectively analyzing glamp sites?

Garrett Brown:
So when I first analyzed my first site, that was something I kind of ran into because I’m near Houston, Texas is where I built it, but there wasn’t many unique structures in the area when I started looking around, I think I saw one yurt that happened to be maybe 20 minutes away from where I was, which we will get into the permitting issues, which I didn’t run into much because I planned ahead, but I was starting to see like, okay, there’s not many unique builds and that could be a sign of, maybe it’s not the right area to go into, but I took a chance with that. I knew it was so close and I could follow the 60 30 10 rule. Nowadays though, I’d say there’s a lot more commonplace for different glamping structures and my friend Ben Wolf who created Stay On Narrow, which is one of the coolest destination, he’s not really glamping.
He’s even more high end than that than I would say like tree houses and things. But one of his phrases that he uses a lot every time we talk is he looks for Signal and not saturation. And so how he even found one of his popular sites that he knew was going to be profitable for him was he was looking in the area. You can use something like Price Labs has market dashboards that you can go into and see what’s performing in the area and see what comps you have, but you could even just go onto Airbnb, simple as that, or even go to Google and type glamping or campgrounds, tiny homes, things like that in this area. And as you’re looking at ’em, use something like the market dashboards from Price Labs and see what these structures are kind of making, see what the reviews are saying.
Do they have high-end amenities? Do they have great photos and all these things like that. If you’re looking in an area and you see a few tiny homes or smaller cottages or cabins that are performing pretty well based on the market research from Price Labs in your own, just diving into Airbnb, that’s probably a pretty good sign that there at least is the desire for people to rent this type of accommodation. Then if I go into it and break it down even further, even to this day sometimes it’s going to be hard to know it exactly what you would make on a structure if there’s not other similar ones there. If you have a couple glamping sites that are already established, you can get a pretty good feel for where you’re going to fall in line with revenue wise. But with my first geodome, I was going to be the only unique stay in the area.
Everybody’s average daily rate was around one 50 or 200 for just smaller cottages, and I decided that I was going to add the amenities to beat them out, and I started lower with my price points. We were about under, I think we were around two 50 nightly rate, and we kind of just kept gradually raising that up and adding more cabins to keep increasing that lever. The main thing that really helped me decide though was I was using spreadsheets and typing in different numbers and researching other people’s head calculators. I’m pretty sure I even used Tony’s calculator at some point to decide on different, what are these short-term rentals making? How is this going to compare? And so I took a lot of that data and made my own spreadsheet, and I actually will put it out to the public soon with my glamping investor guide of you can analyze these different glamping structures by simply seeing what else is available in the area, looking at their nightly rate, learning in their occupancy on something like Price Labs, and then entering all your information that you see, and it will help you automatically calculate what your cash on cash return will be if you want to sell it in five years, what that profit could be.
If you don’t have a ton of data out there, there’s no real way to know, not a ton of data. If you don’t have a ton of structures like yours in an area you’re going to, it will be a little harder to estimate what you’ll make. But if you’re able to fall into that 60, 30 10 rule and understand that if you build the experience with the right marketing behind it, which I personally think is one of my strong suits and why we’ve been able to really make it go forward, then you’re going to be able to beat those traditional short-term rental cottages and cabins because you’re building an experience and people thrive and will pay much higher than you even expect for these experiences that you could provide. People crave this type of stay now, and I build it for virality. I build it for Instagram, and that’s what people love. They love the social currency of staying somewhere cool and being able to get away from these city nights, and you’ll be a little surprised that you can almost double the rates of some of these just basic cabins that are out there if you provide the right couple of amenities and the right experience for the guests that are thinking about it.

Tony Robinson:
Greg, I want to give you some kudos because I think it takes guts to go into a market where the dataset is limited and you’ve got to not take a leap of faith. I think that’s underselling the work that goes into it, but it is a little bit of like, Hey, we’re going to make some assumptions around what we think is possible here and being able to kind of take that swing. But I think it goes back to the point you made at the beginning of the podcast where it’s like, even if I just were to turn this single family home into a long-term rental, we’ll probably still be okay. And I think having that as your fallback and having a backup plan is what gives you some confidence to move forward. I know so far we’ve talked about all the parts of glamping and all the good things that come along with it, but I know that it’s not always sunshine and rainbow. So permits, septic inspections, guest expectations, and just all of those rookie mistakes that can kill your dream site before it’s even built. So I want to get to that right after A quick word from today’s show sponsors.

Ashley Kehr:
Okay, welcome back from our short break, Garrett. What are some of the mistakes or maybe items that glamping investors totally underestimate getting started?

Garrett Brown:
So there’s a myriad of things that you need to pay attention to. I think I talked to glamping beginners and people that already have sites all over the country and the world all the time, and I think the biggest holdup for a lot of people is the permitting side. I was lucky enough, well, I don’t know if luck’s the right word, I did my due diligence, but I’m in an area that I didn’t have a ton of very high pressure permitting processes to go through, but it’s because I did my research upfront with this. So I says I’m looking into the sites, I’m looking in trying to figure out, I’m trying to bring this geodome structure to rural Texas where most of these people, they probably have one person in the permitting department and you call ’em up and Hey, I want to build a geodome, and they’re like a geo what they think you’re trying to build something just like a spaceship or something.
And so one real big piece of advice I will give is if you are going to go the geodome route or the yurt route or anything like that, I highly recommend that you try to find a company that will be able to give you architectural stamped plans. Pacific Domes is one of the ones that it’s included with the cost or I think it might’ve been a little more like another 1500 bucks or $2,000, but those plans made it much easier with my county to get it permitted. And as I was looking into different counties, there’s three or four counties that were in the general area of that lake I was looking in. I would call each permit department and I would say, Hey, and you always want to be honest. You don’t want to lie and tell ’em you’re doing something else. I would call ’em and say, or email, Hey, this is what I want to do.
I want to build a geodome or a glamping site. Is that something we could do? What are your thoughts? Three out of the four we’re just like, no, I don’t know about that. No, I don’t think we could ever do that. One of them goes, we’ve never done that, but we’d be open to hearing it. So I was like, okay, that’s a good sign. And then also the biggest key piece was I was talking to contractors at the time in all of these areas and I would just ask them, most of them work in multiple counties. I would go, Hey, which county has the easiest permitting process? And every single one of ’em was like, Hey, go to county A, county B, good luck. You’re never going to have that happen. County A is one to go to because they’re not going to care as much. They just want hope. They’re not watching this.
They just want their permitting money. And so that’s how I ended up in the place that I was. And the other big piece of it is when you’re newer rely on well, contractors with a great reputation, I was on Facebook groups, all of them have local Facebook groups in these areas and I was asking like, Hey, anybody know good contractors? Anybody know good contractors? And I was getting some recommendations, but the names that kept popping up multiple times, those are the ones that I would call to because then I ended up finding out that small town areas, this is how it is pretty much all over the board. One of the contractors had, I think his aunt worked in the permitting department there, and it was like he was like, oh yeah, that’s no problem to get that permit done over there. We can do that for sure.
And it’s kind of what you find out in these small towns is that usually you just need to pick up the phone and call around and tell people what you’re thinking about doing. The better contractors you use, the better electrical electricians and all that. They most likely have reputations with the county to where if they find out you’re working with this contractor, they’re not going to care as much. They’re going to be like, okay, he’s obviously working with somebody we know that builds all the time out here. So they were very relaxed for a lack of better words with my structures. But the other thing is septic is going to be huge too. Don’t underestimate your septic. That is by far the biggest pushback you’ll get in your permitting. The process is how you’re doing your septic design. And so finding a reputable septic company upfront and working with them, they should have something that’s called a septic designer or a septic system drawer artist, I don’t know, whatever they want to coin it sometimes this person is going to be vital in you getting your permitting for your systems there.
If you want to do the off-grid toilets and things, that’s a whole nother, I don’t recommend it for good luck to your cleaners for dealing with that. And you’re also not, you’re not going to get those prices that you’re thinking you’re going to definitely have to dramatically cut your estimated revenue if you’re using that type of system. But go with a septic designer that knows the area and think about your vision too upfront. One mistake I made was I knew I wanted six or seven cabins in the end. Well, I don’t know if it’s a mistake, I want to correct myself because sometimes just the sheer amount of money you have could stop this. But I wish I would’ve designed one massive septic system to feed every single cabin. It would’ve been much cheaper in the long run, but I did a septic system for just my first two cabins, which saved me money instead of doing one septic system per, that’s way more expensive.
I don’t recommend that, but me doing the two cabins, I paid about $10,000 for my septic system. If I would’ve been able to have the money upfront, which I didn’t at the time, full transparency, if I could have gotten all seven cabins and one big septic system for about 25 to 30,000, I would’ve saved a lot of headache and money going forward with my county because that was the one thing they were a little worried about. They were like, Hey, we don’t want you to have a ton of small septic systems all around your property and things like that.

Ashley Kehr:
And more to maintain, more to pump, yeah,

Garrett Brown:
More contract maintenance contracts I have to have. But again, I didn’t have the funds to do that, build all this and spend 30,000 on a commercial septic system. But that is the one thing that I would get ahead of is your septic design, because almost every single county that’s going to be one of their biggest worries. Well, actually less than the structure, it’s actually the septic involved.

Ashley Kehr:
Garrett, what about the water source? There was a time where I had a dream of owning a campground and I learned a lot about water. Daryl even went and got his water certification in case we did buy a campground. And so now he’s certified to test water, I guess. I don’t know. But one of the properties we looked at was had a wellhouse and it had to be tested because there was so many units on the property as far as campground hookups and things like that on it. So what about that for glamping, the water source? I mean, what is the best option to use there?

Garrett Brown:
Very similar to with that. So with our water, well, and I want to throw this out there too, people are hearing these big numbers for electricity and septic, but I will say those add a ton of value to your land, and if you want to exit later on and sell everything, that kind of infrastructure is how you’re going to make a lot of your money back. So if you’re going to spend money on utilities, don’t be upset about it because that is actually putting in real value to the land that you’re building. So with the water well system, one great thing about having a house on the property, and again, every county’s going to be different, so work with somebody in your area that and talk to your county. I was able to tap in for my first cabin into the water well system that I had for the house because it was only a one bedroom.
After that though, when we wanted to, we knew we were planning on expanding and adding more. I had to add another water well system to the back of the land that could feed more cabins. And so now I’m able to, even with the new cabins that we’re working on right now, I’m able to tap into the water well system there for each, and I’ve certified it with the company that did the water well. Don’t get Joe hanging out at the Dollar General to come and try to put in a water well for you with one of the hand cranks or something. Use a reputable company because it’s a big deal too. You’re going to need your water tested and maintained. And so you want a reputable company that has been there for a while, get a few different quotes from different companies. And then that Water Well Source though is going to be able to supply quite a few cabins.
It’s kind of amazing how, and every area of the country is different too. Again, I’m in east or east Texas of sorts, so maybe a little different for me than somebody in Montana or something. But making sure that you have a well-built water well system that can supply. And again, this is why you need to know what your vision is going forward. You just want to make sure that you’re going to be able to have the capacity for all the other units. I spent about $12,000 on my water Well and about a thousand dollars to build a wellhouse around it, but that water well system added a ton of value to my land. Now I have water on both sides of my 11 acres, and I also have been able to feed almost every single other cabin that I have with this water well system. But it was all by design and knowing what my vision was for the future. So it’s something I wouldn’t take lightly in your planning

Ashley Kehr:
And talking about a well and a septic, you don’t have to pay fees on it. You do public utility, so that is one of benefit. You have a huge upfront cost, but over time, I have a friend who’s buying a house right now and the septic is 37 years old, so she hasn’t gotten the test herself back yet, but I’m like, I’m pretty sure there’s a chance that’s going to have to be replaced. But the fact that some of these systems can last a really, really long time, obviously it was still working. The house didn’t back up with

Garrett Brown:
A lot of those are built. They do a different type of septic system now it’s called an aerobic system. It’s a little newer and works a little better, but even though some of those older septic systems, if they were built well and they were permitted, they probably were made of concrete or something like that, and they hold up for quite a while. But that’s why you get any place you’re buying and it has a septic, you need a septic inspection.

Ashley Kehr:
And in New York, the county requires that you have to can’t transfer title without doing it. And the banks require for you to get, especially if you’re getting a mortgage, the bank will require you to do

Garrett Brown:
It. My water bill and sewer bill each month is $0 now. Well, besides the maintenance and things like that, but even a long-term rental I bought not long ago near Houston, Texas, the water and sewer bill is almost $150 a month now and has been fluctuating. And it’s just small things like that that just gradually eat up into your profit. And so it’s great having a $0 water bill each month.

Ashley Kehr:
Feel free, take those long shower.

Garrett Brown:
Oh, they do. Trust me, the guests do. I see our electricity bill. That’s the one thing that

Ashley Kehr:
Actually you have to get solar panels.

Garrett Brown:
Yeah. Yeah, that might be the next step because electricity, I definitely electricity and wifi, you’re not getting away from paying those. For sure.

Tony Robinson:
Garrett, how many units that are on that property now?

Garrett Brown:
We have five units currently, and we are in the process. We just got our permit for our next two, and after that we’re probably going to shut off how many more we build. My goal was always six to seven, and so we’re very close to that.

Tony Robinson:
So if we go back to that first, the first one you built out, I just want to kind of compile all of the costs aside from the costs that you spend to acquire the single family home, but the septic, the other utilities, the actual build costs, just like ballpark, what did you actually have to spend out of pocket to get that first unit up and running?

Garrett Brown:
So this is definitely a learning lesson for me, and I tell people going forward that I love my geodome. I’d probably never build another one. I learned so much about it, and I don’t, I hope Pacific Domes doesn’t hate me for this, but I wouldn’t recommend people building this because I spent about $125,000 between all the utilities, all the roadwork, the structure. I mean, we spent like $10,000 on the bathroom inside. It’s not just a cookie cutter place. We have a hot tub, we have a deck, it’s overlooking a pond. All of that. We spent about $125,000. I love my geodome at cash flows like crazy. I think we made the two and a half years we’ve been running it, we’ve made 90 5K gross each year with it. And I wish I would’ve spent that money on a more traditional A-frame maybe or something.
My recommendation for anybody thinking about this, especially if you’re going to spend that kind of cash and you’re not going like the Safari tent route for a little cheaper, which you can do and everybody has their place, I would try to build something a little more stick built, but very unique. The best you can work with an architect or something, but then really spend the money on the outside that you’re building as well. Some of my people, I have a friend in London who has a very popular site called Secret Garden Glamping, and he spends about 40 or $50,000 per unit, but they spend about that same amount on the outside, and they are booked out for two years in advance because they make the outside so cool. And he said the same thing. People love the inside. You need a place with ac, you need a place with running hot water, nice bathrooms, but most people that come out there are actually trying to hang out outside.
They’re only sleeping or maybe cooking some meals here and there inside. So any advice I would have for people going forward, you’re going to have to spend the money on the utilities. And with our second cabin, it was a lot cheaper because I had the septic in place already. I had the water well in place already. I had roadwork done. It became much easier. But that first cabin is usually the one with the biggest lift. So I would look into something maybe with a little more equity value, but I do love my geodome and it has performed well, and it is held up very well too. So it’s just something to think about for people that might be considering these types of stays.

Ashley Kehr:
Well, Garrett, thank you so much for joining us today, and congratulations on your new book. Where can People find The Glamping Investor?

Garrett Brown:
Yep. So it is coming out July 15th. Depending on when you’re listening to this, it may already be out or it may be pre-order available. You can go to biggerpockets.com/glamp guide and you’ll be able to order it there. It’s every bit of knowledge that I’ve gained in these past five or six years put into one amazing resource. And for the cost of a Netflix subscription, basically, you don’t need to spend $6,000 at a Mastermind to learn what I’ve learned over this. I put every single thing into this book, and I’m sure it’s going to be a valuable resource for anybody that is curious about this type of investing.

Ashley Kehr:
Well, Garrett, I can’t wait to read it. I recently did a YouTube video on Bigger Stays YouTube with Garrett, and I had to stop during the middle of it because I felt like I was at a conference. I just paid a thousand dollars, and someone just said that one thing that was like, yes, that made that worth it. So definitely check out the book, the Glamping and Foster, thank you so much for joining us today. This is the Real Estate Rookie podcast. I’m Ashley. He’s Tony, and we’ll see you guys on the next episode.

 

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Can’t make the numbers work in your local market? No worries—long-distance real estate investing is the natural next step. We’ve done it before, many times, and made the beginner mistakes, so you don’t have to. Now, we’re gearing up to do it again. Dave and Henry are heading out on the Cash Flow Road Show,” touring top Midwest markets, and maybe even making offers along the way.

These trips are crucial for finding deals and getting to know an area. We’re sharing the exact blueprint to follow before you make a long-distance investment. Who should you meet? How do you know a neighborhood is safe? What are the exact questions you should ask an agent?

We’re providing you with the complete list so your next long-distance or out-of-state investment is a success. Seriously, we’re giving you an actual list of things expert investors do before buying in any area. Don’t just show up and start touring houses—make your trip out to a new market worth the effort. Follow these exact steps before long-distance investing!

Dave Meyer:
We tell you every week on this show that cashflow is possible in 2025, and now we’re going to prove it. I’m here with Henry Washington and we’re going to give you our blueprint for long distance investing in affordable cashflowing markets so you can copy exactly what the experts do before buying away from home. So if you’re even considering buying outside of your area, this is what to do before you bid. Hey everyone, it’s Dave. I’m the head of real estate investing at BiggerPockets, and I’m joined today by my friend Henry Washington. Henry, thanks for being here.

Henry Washington:
Hey, what’s up bud? Glad to be here.

Dave Meyer:
I think it’s safe to say you are not officially a long distance investor yet, right?

Henry Washington:
Yet. I mean, kind of. Sort of, but not really. I have a mobile home park that I would truly call out of state. I have some properties in other states, but those I don’t consider true out-of-state investments. I can be there in 45 minutes to an hour.

Dave Meyer:
You haven’t done it yet, but we’ve been talking about it a lot, so I know you’re interested in it, right? Yeah, you’re interested in it enough to the point where everyone should know this. Henry and I are actually going to be going and driving around the Midwest looking for cash flowing deals, cash flowing markets on the first ever cashflow roadshow. I’m super excited about it. Henry, what are you looking forward to?

Henry Washington:
Well, first of all, I’m a deal junkie. I just like looking at deals, whether they’re mine or somebody else’s, it doesn’t matter. And learning about real estate in general, but it’s different when you’re analyzing deals online than when you’re actually in a market and touching and feeling the market and seeing the people who live there and seeing where they work and just kind of how people operate within that market because it helps you understand better whether a deal truly is a good deal, like looking at a deal on paper and then going and seeing that deal in person can sometimes be completely different. And so I’m just most excited about learning about these markets firsthand with my own eyes and being within the communities.

Dave Meyer:
Absolutely. So in this episode, what we’re doing here today is we are going to talk to you about first and foremost, why we chose the Midwest to go on this little road trip that we’re going on and the three markets that we’re going to be visiting. We’re going to talk about logistically, step-by-step, how we’re planning for the trip, the number one priorities that you should be thinking about. You want to make these things efficient as a possible. So we’re going to talk about that and we’re going to just share with you a couple tips about long distance investing along the way. But just before we get into that, I just want to invite everyone, if you happen to live in the Great Lakes region to our free events that we’re going to have as part of the Cashflow Roadshow Chicago, it’s on July 15th, it’s at a brewery.
We will put the link in the bio, but you can just go to biggerpockets.com/roadshow and check that out. And then the next night on July 16th, we’re having one in Indianapolis. So definitely come check that out. They are free events. We’re going to have lots of giveaways. Surprise, it’s going to be fun, but you do have to RSVP, so make sure to RSVP if you want to come. We hope to see you there. And with that, let’s get into the episode. Alright, so let’s talk about this trip. We are flying into Wisconsin. We’re starting in the Milwaukee region, then we’re going to Chicago, then we’re going to to Indianapolis. I’m like the data guy coming out with the list. You pick this, you were like, I want to go to the, what do you call it, the Milwaukee Chicago corridor?

Henry Washington:
Yeah, absolutely.

Dave Meyer:
Why?

Henry Washington:
I think it’s kind of a unique scenario because you have two major city hubs and then in between those major city hubs it’s only about a two hour drive, and then there’s smaller cities in between these two major cities and these two major cities are fairly affordable for a major city market in the first place.
And then on top of that, you have great rents because there’s great jobs in these two major cities and you’ve got these suburbs in between these two major cities where a lot of people are living and commuting to these two major cities. And the larger corporations have started to realize this and have started to come in and build offices to take advantage of some of these workers. And the cities have spent money on infrastructure to help people get in and out of these major cities. And so there’s just a lot of economics and infrastructure that make for what could potentially be a good real estate market. On top of that, you have affordability in terms of home pricing and great rents to go with it. And so in my head, it just seems like this could be a perfect storm for a real estate investor might want to spend their money.

Dave Meyer:
Are you actually interested in buying here? I know,

Henry Washington:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Look, man, I told you I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. This perfect storm of data points for real estate investors and a perfect storm in the Great Lakes area creates what? Lake effect cashflow, baby. I love it. You’re trying to give me some of

Dave Meyer:
That. Okay, so that’s one area. I think I’ve said this before. I think Chicago is this slept on investor city. I think people have this vision of what Chicago is. Are there pockets that have no cashflow? Sure. Are there pockets that might have high crime? Sure, but it’s an enormous city and there are really interesting parts of it and it’s so affordable. Median home price in Chicago is $350,000.

Henry Washington:
That’s insane.

Dave Meyer:
Find me another major city with an economy like Chicago that has price points like that.

Henry Washington:
I mean the only other major city I can think of that has an economy like Chicago is New York and it ain’t a median home price of $350,000 there. I can tell you that.

Dave Meyer:
No, it’s like triple that, right? Yeah, it’s crazy. And so yeah, I think that there’s a lot to go there. And then lastly on our trip, Indianapolis, I mean this just has some of the strongest metrics of any city right now. It’s affordable. The home prices are still like 2, 2 50, but it has huge population growth. Jobs are moving there, there’s favorable laws, there’s a lot to like there. And I generally just like the Midwest, I’m always hawking the Midwest on this show because I just think affordability is so key to the housing market right now in an era of low interest rates, it’s different, but in an era of higher interest rates, I think, and you see this in the data, the areas where there’s still a lot of activity going on are the affordable markets and if we stay on this path, the trajectory that we’re on right now, it seems like affordability is going to continue to be a key driver of performance for investors. And so that’s just why I like the Great Lakes in particular, so much on top of the

Henry Washington:
Cashflow. Yeah, no, I agree wholeheartedly.

Dave Meyer:
So Henry, talk to me a little bit about what are you looking for, what are your concerns? What are you hoping to learn?

Henry Washington:
First thing I’m looking for is a team in that area because real estate investing is a team sport. Even here in my own backyard, I have several people that either directly work on my team or indirectly work with me who frankly without them I would be in a world of hurt. And so getting on the ground and starting to meet people who could potentially work with me on my team is huge for me because that team is even going to be more valuable than my current in-market team because I’m not there and I don’t care what anybody says. It is hard to build professional relationships with people unless you’re on the ground with them, like Zoom meetings on the go so far. But when you can get on the ground and meet people and see their work, see how they work in person I think is huge. And so mostly real estate agents and property managers are going to be the two big keys. Next in line for me is contractors, but those two things are really important for me to get out there, see, meet, talk to, and see how they work. People can tell you how they can work all day and you can even call and get references, but when you go and you see how somebody operates their business, it speaks volumes.

Dave Meyer:
Absolutely. What I usually do is try and look for, I’d say at least two, probably three agents going and interviewing them. For me, that’s probably the number one thing. I think that is probably the most important thing you could do. Or do you hold property manager just as

Henry Washington:
High? Well, they’re both important, but for me, the agent comes first because the agent’s really going to start to help feed you these potential deals, whether they’re on the market or off the market. They’re your kind of first gateway and they can introduce you to those property managers who are air quotes, the good ones, because if they’re truly good real estate agents, investor friendly agents, they know exactly who the good property managers are and who are not. So I’d rather take warm intros to property managers from a seasoned real estate investor than to just start calling property managers cold.

Dave Meyer:
I think the reason the agent’s so important is yes, feed me deals, run a transaction, but their is extremely important, extremely important. You want to find an agent who is not going to just execute on your deals but can connect you to a property manager. I’m always going out and meeting new property managers to help my clients. I’m meeting with contractors because I service a lot of out-of-state investors. These are the kinds of things that really

Henry Washington:
Matter. Absolutely,

Dave Meyer:
You can absolutely find a property manager who can be your anchor in the community and you can use their network. I’ve just personally found that agents usually are better for that and take that part of their job very seriously. If you’re going to be working with investors,

Henry Washington:
Any good agent will have a database of lenders that they have relationships with. They’re going to have property managers, they’re going to have contractors, subcontractors, and I said it earlier, warm intros are so much better than reaching out cold. If you reach out to somebody via a warm intro to a trusted professional, people typically answer the phone, they typically answer their messages, they typically prioritize you, and so it really does speed up the process for you.

Dave Meyer:
Alright, well let’s get into the actual questions and things that you should be doing when you interview both an agent, property manager, anyone else you meet along the way. We do have to take a quick break though. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast here with Henry Washington talking about our blueprint for out-of-state investing and specifically today we’re really talking about how to do the final step of out-of-state investing, which is going to a market, building a team, finding the specific neighborhoods that you want to go invest in that is going to give you the confidence if you want to pursue this kind of strategy to go out and actually do it. We’re talking about specific questions to ask, so we’ve talked about an agent being the most important. So Henry, what are some things that you think our audience if they’re going to do this as well should be asking agents when they’re considering working with them in a long distance market?

Henry Washington:
So for me, communication is top of my list because if you don’t have good communication then details get missed, deals get lost, things don’t get signed at appropriate times, money can be lost and so you want to make sure first and foremost that you understand how you like to communicate and how you like to be communicated with. And then you want to make sure that your agent is willing to communicate with you in the way that you need to be communicated with because if that’s a miss on Jump Street, it doesn’t matter how good they are with everything else. If you guys aren’t going to be able to communicate in a way that’s beneficial for you both, then you shouldn’t work with that person.

Dave Meyer:
Dude, I’m having this problem. I have an agent I really like in a market I’m considering investing in and he just doesn’t respond to emails very quickly and I get that some people text but I’m in front of a computer all day, I need it in a couple days. It can’t be a week later. And it’s like he might be great on text or phone and that’s fine, but as a long distance investor, I can’t be on the phone all the time, so I need it to be asynchronous. So email,

Henry Washington:
That is a perfect example. If you were one of my students, I would tell you first that you need to have a heart to heart conversation with them and let them know truly that this is important to you and how you need to be communicated with and if it doesn’t work,

Dave Meyer:
That’s right.

Henry Washington:
And if it doesn’t work from that point, then you find another one. Even if they’re the best agent in that market, if you guys can’t communicate, then you are going to be upset a lot. Things are going to get missed and it’s going to end up costing you time or money.

Dave Meyer:
All right, communication. That’s a really good one. First question I always ask to every agent is like, what’s the move? I leave it very open on purpose. I don’t say my buy box is a duplex or 450,000 because I’m not testing at that point their ability to find me the deal I want. I want to see how well they understand the market. Big picture, if you were me and you had unlimited time and money, what would you invest in this market? Because different in every market, right? Some it’s duplex, some it’s single family, some it’s commercial, some it’s this price point. Show me that you know exactly the best possible investments in your city. And so I recommend people do that. It’s just keep it super vague and see if they can convince you of something and you may still eventually tell them, Hey, I have this buy box, this is what I want to buy. That’s fine, but at this point in the interview it’s got to be super high level and you’re testing them on their market knowledge.

Henry Washington:
Absolutely. When you ask somebody that question, if they’re truly going to give you a good answer, it’s going to involve them understanding who the customers are in that market, who the tenants are, why they want to rent a certain thing or why they want to buy a certain thing where they want to rent or where they want to buy it. That answer should include some information about market data, how long things are taking to sell, what areas of the town things are going fast or going slow in. It shows you that they truly understand multiple facets of their market to be able to come up with a strategy that would make sense for their market. And so you’re right, even if that strategy isn’t something you want to do, knowing that they know their market well enough to put together a strategy that might make sense gives you a ton of comfort.

Dave Meyer:
That’s exactly right. I was at a meetup the other day in Seattle and I don’t really know if and what my strategy in this market will be, but I was just talking to an agent and she was like, yeah, if you’re going to invest here, my recommendation is to buy between 900001.125 million in these five neighborhoods because what’s selling really quickly right now is in that 1.5 to 1.7 million band and after renovation costs, this is what’s going to move for you quickly. I was like, yeah,

Henry Washington:
This

Dave Meyer:
Person rocks. This person knows exactly how to make money in this market and just gave me a prescription for what would work if I were to choose to do that. And that’s the kind of level of specificity and detail that I really think you need. Okay. Any other interview questions you have for agents? I have one more, but if you have any more, go for it.

Henry Washington:
I just want to make sure that these people are actual investors or mostly work with investors because that will help me solidify if it’s somebody that I should be working with. Because if you are an investor, there’s so many conversations that we don’t have to have because you already understand where I’m coming from. I don’t want to have to educate you on investing while we’re working together. So I don’t want to have to waste a lot of time telling you why something’s not a great investment, telling you why it’s not a great deal, or telling you why I will or will not make a decision that you want me to make about a property because you don’t understand it from an investing standpoint. Trust me, you’re going to waste a lot of time with people who don’t have investing experience. I don’t want you to question me every time I need to make an offer at 50 or $70,000 less than what’s listed.

Dave Meyer:
And that actually leads me to the one I was going to say, which is show me success stories of your

Henry Washington:
Clients

Dave Meyer:
In the market and to your point, show me your portfolio. Where are you buying? What are you doing right now and why? And walk me through the numbers and literally drive me there and show me this market that to me, you learn so much. If they tell you and you’re like, Hey, this person really thought through where to buy, what to buy it for, how to negotiate this deal that is going to teach you a lot. I just find sometimes you drive around a city with these people and they’re like, oh, I sold that house or I bought this house or my client bought that house. And you’re like, great, this person knows every block. That’s the kind of person you just get it driving around. It’s different than them saying, I had 40 transactions last year. Or it’s like, oh, actually that’s my friend. He’s renovating that

Henry Washington:
House.

Dave Meyer:
This will happen if you go with a good agent. This kind of stuff will happen and it teaches you so much.

Henry Washington:
I’ve asked agents before what their LLC name is and then gone on the county records and looked up to see how many properties they owned. In most states you can literally pull up their LLC and it’ll show you every property that the LLC owns and then you can ask specific questions, especially if they own properties in neighborhoods you’re interested in.

Dave Meyer:
All right, so that’s agent. That was a lot of good advice there. What about property managers?

Henry Washington:
Property managers are huge and I’m actually willing to give everybody a little gift for listening to this show. So if you are listening and you are going to be interviewing property managers, I actually have a list of questions, 25 questions you should ask a potential property manager and that way you can just go down the list and it even has the answers you’re looking for and why on them. So super helpful for me. Happy to share that with everybody.

Dave Meyer:
What are some of the 25 that you think are better in person, like the ones that you would prioritize when you’re actually face-to-face with someone?

Henry Washington:
One of the things I think is important is finding out how frequently they actually go inside of a property and having them verify that with you. And so my property manager is inside of the units quarterly for just random checkups on maintenance items, but it allows them to get into the units four times a year and then they send me a report of what the units look like if they were good, not good and what was happening. If they don’t have a clear answer for you about how frequently they’re going into a unit, if they’re just like, oh, I mean we rent it out and then we will check on it. If something comes up here or there that’s not okay for me, you should have a dialed in process where when you’re going in units and why, that’s just something you should look for in general.
If they’re answering your questions vaguely at all, it tells me that they don’t have a process around this. It’s not something that’s important to them or that they do. And so you need to understand, you need to know if that’s something that you’re okay with. The other thing I like to ask is how do they get paid and not just on the percentage of the rents that they’re keeping as your property management fee, but a lot of property managers are collecting fees in other ways. In other words, if they’re getting paid for lease up every time and they’re not getting paid for tenants who chose to stay, then they’re incentivized for you to have turnover. And I don’t want to have additional turnover if I have a good tenant because you want to make an extra a hundred to 300 bucks because you put a new tenant in place for sure. So you want to make sure that your property managers are incentivized for things that are good for you as the landlord.

Dave Meyer:
Alright, very good advice here and I’ll put that list of 25 property manager questions up on our show notes. The other thing I just recommend while you’re in person is ask or find out where your property manager’s properties are and go visit them because you can learn so much just from the exterior. You don’t even need to be able to go inside. Go look at how nice the property is on the exterior. If the grass is overrun, if things are falling off the walls, it is a red flag for me. I think it’s super important to find a property manager who shares your philosophy about tenant relationships. I think this is a big issue sometimes there are owners who don’t want to spend money. The door hinge is squeaky, they don’t want to do it. I personally am the opposite of that. It’s like, oh, the tenant doesn’t like the door, fix the hinges.
Go do it. It’s 50 bucks, go do it. To me of the course of your investing career, one, having great tenants is part of the job. You need to find great tenants. To me, really important. And so always want to find a property manager who is proactive. I don’t want to wait until I hear about it from the tenants or something else that’s going on. Whatever the dishwasher is not working properly, I want the property manager to be going out and soliciting that information from the tenants to make sure that they’re always happy and I’ve told all of my property managers 200 bucks or less, just go fix it. I just want you to go fix it and I don’t even want to hear about it, put it on the

Henry Washington:
Bill,

Dave Meyer:
That kind of thing. Whereas I’ve talked to my property manager and he said to me, thank you for saying that because sometimes I get beat up
For spending 50 bucks. And so you need to be super clear with the property manager what you want your relationship to be like with the property manager and between the property manager and the tenants and finding someone that shares that philosophy is you is going to be super important. It’s going to really help have a better relationship. Alright, so those are some things to think about, questions to ask things to do while you’re on a trip to look for long distance investing markets, but then let’s talk about neighborhoods. I think this is the other major thing that you need to do on these trips. It’s like build the team. Then you got to figure out what areas are aligned with your strategy. We got to take one more quick break. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. Henry and I are talking about how we’re planning our cashflow roadshow and giving advice on how if you’re thinking about investing long distance and things you absolutely have to do on these trips, we talked about building your team. Let’s talk about neighborhoods. So Henry, what are you going to look for when we get out there and what do you think people should be keeping an eye out when they do these trips?

Henry Washington:
So first and foremost, you shouldn’t be showing up to a market cold without knowing what neighborhoods you want to go visit. Obviously if you’ve done enough research, you should understand, hey, these are some neighborhoods that I think I would like to invest in based on the data and you want to make sure you highlight those.
I would also ask each agent that I’m going to meet with about each of those neighborhoods and ask them to give me some other neighborhoods that I might not have on the list that they think are good and why. And then a lot of the times too, guys, you’re going to be doing this research and especially in some of these markets like you hear about Chicago and it’s so dangerous here and all these places you may find neighborhoods where the numbers look fantastic, but you are worried about the crime or you’re worried about the perception of the neighborhood. If you think the numbers are good in a neighborhood, go there, go see it for yourself because nine times out of 10 that neighborhood’s not as bad as you think. It’s don’t get me wrong, there are bad neighborhoods in every big city in the country, but if the market dynamics seem good and you’re just hearing rumors about crime, like rumors and facts and statistics are different things, go get a feel for the neighborhood and the people and what you see happening or not happening in that neighborhood. And I’d urge you go in the evening, go see what it’s like at night

Dave Meyer:
For

Henry Washington:
Sure when it’s dark. If you feel unsafe at night in the dark, your tenants may too, and that may be different, but I think people put a lot of weight on crime in markets when it’s not as bad nearly as people think.

Dave Meyer:
I think you made a very good point. You shouldn’t go in cold, especially if you’re going to a big city like Chicago. You can’t go visit all that in five days. So it’s like how do you pick four or five neighborhoods? And I think for me, I would probably look at cashflow potential. I would look at home prices and historic home price growth and I would look at infrastructure and walkability. I think those things are hugely important, especially in city investing. Where is public transportation? How walkable, where are the grocery stores people pay to live near that stuff they do. That’s just how it works. And so finding neighborhoods that have that stuff is super important and then I just want to go check it out and see if it’s cool and if the vibe matches the

Henry Washington:
Numbers. You also want to pay attention to your strategy is your strategy to find current neighborhoods that are desirable already. People want to live there and you want to get your piece of real estate in that market and be comfortable or is your strategy to get in the path of progress so that you get some cashflow and some appreciation. If your strategy is, Hey, I want to get into the path of progress and get there early, some of the things you should research before going to see some of these neighborhoods are going on the city council’s website and seeing where new development is happening, where they’re approving plans for commercial properties. That’s all stuff you can typically find out on the city council’s website or just doing a Google search about infrastructure that’s coming. You can go and see if they’re opening Lowe’s, home Depot, Menards, any of those big box stores on the outskirts of town anywhere because if they’re opening one of those stores, it typically means that there’s building that’s happening or going to be happening and people need access to supplies in those areas. Are there sports teams coming? Can you do that kind of a research? What major plans does that city have? Where are those things going? And then go and see those neighborhoods and maybe that’s someplace you can buy before some of this stuff happens. So companies do all this research at a higher level, then you’re going to be able to do it. And so a lot of the times you can leverage the company’s research. So if you know Chick-fil-A is going to be opening a store in that neighborhood, they’re doing it for a reason,
They don’t think they’re not going to have customers. So Chick-fil-A’s Targets, home Depots, Lowe’s, another hack is go and buy one share of stock of those companies so that you can get the company stock package briefings and they’ll email you those things. And in those things they tell you, you can see wherever they’re going to open stores.

Dave Meyer:
The last thing I’ll mention about going and looking at neighborhoods that I think is really overlooked is the housing stock. I don’t know why people never talk about this, but look at the quality of the homes, not just the one that you are interested in buying, but just look at the overall housing stock. When I used to go around in Denver, there was just these areas, you’ve been to Denver, there’s these beautiful old Victorian homes that were maybe in the path of progress. They hadn’t really been renovated, but they’re these incredible humps and you’re like, this has to turn around. Whereas opposed to, is it the super ugly 70 track homes everywhere? That’s going to limit the appreciation. You need to look at not just the property you’re looking at, but is the whole area poised to start growing.
So look at just the quality of the homes. But I think the other thing is I’ve not invested in markets that I like because they just don’t have a lot of duplexes or triplexes. It’s all single family homes and then I can’t find the types of deals I want in those neighborhoods and you can’t always see that. You might look on the MLS and see, oh, there’s not duplexes for sale, but you might actually go and see there’s tons of duplexes, you just need to be patient. Or the opposite, maybe there was two duplexes for sale in this neighborhood and then when you go there, those are the only two duplexes. And so I think that’s a really important part is make sure that you’re going to find the kinds of properties that you want to buy in that

Henry Washington:
Neighborhood. That’s a great point. That’s probably one of the best tips so far because we have great market dynamics where I live, and so people say all the time, oh, I’d love to invest there. I’d love to buy multifamily there. We don’t have a ton of it. Yeah, there’s plenty, there’s some, but not compared to where we’re going in the Midwest where there is abundance of it, we don’t have a lot of it. And so when it hits the market, it gets snapped up because compared to the total inventory, it is a much smaller percentage than a lot of other

Dave Meyer:
Markets. A lot of the southeast, newer markets, they don’t build. We haven’t built in this country a lot of new multifamily, so a lot of older markets, older, more established cities tend to have more of this inventory, which one is good for acquisitions but two keeps up renter demand. And cities like Chicago, people are used to living in

Henry Washington:
Multifamilies,

Dave Meyer:
Right? Tenants don’t bat an eye at living in multifamily or in apartments. It’s just how people live. If you’ve stuck a multifamily in the middle of a suburb, you’re probably not going to get the same level of demand. And so you don’t want to be the only duplex in all single families. You want it to be in a community where living in a duplex is normal and there’s going to be a lot of demand for those rentals. So that kind of thing, I find super hard to just look on a map and figure that out. It’s something you kind of have to go drive around and see.

Henry Washington:
Yeah, great point.

Dave Meyer:
All right, well we’ve talked a lot about this trip. Now I’m ready to get out there and go, but before we do any last thoughts or tips, Henry?

Henry Washington:
Other things I would think about just in general, if you are going to be seriously thinking or investing in an area, try to plan a trip when you can go to a city council meeting where you can go to a Chamber of Commerce meeting. These types of meetings, people in the room are people who a want to improve and better their community. They’re embedded within the community and they’re in jobs that are probably going to be beneficial to you. Bank presidents, vice presidents, lenders, they’re typically members of these Chamber of commerce and you going to these meetings gives you a chance to get warm intros via just being in the meeting to people who may be able to give you favorable lending to investing in those areas. They also may be able to introduce you to great real estate agent context in those areas, and it’s also may pave the way for things to be easier for you if you’re going to be doing value add renovations and you’re going to be needing permits and things.

Dave Meyer:
Well

Henry Washington:
Now you’ve got some personal introductions to people who can help remove some of the red tape for you. These meetings typically happen monthly or semi-monthly. They’re not very long and it’s just a great way for you to be to embed yourself in the community. So try to plan a trip when you can attend some of these meetings. Try to do it when there’s going to be local real estate investor meetups happening in the area. Luckily we get to leverage

Dave Meyer:
Like the ones we’re going to.

Henry Washington:
Yes, we get to leverage BiggerPockets, so we made our own meetups while we’re there, but try to go when you can attend local investor meetups because that’s another great way to meet the real estate agents that might help you, the contractors, all the different contacts. So be as efficient as you can with your time, not by just going and building your team, but by going and being able to attend some of these social meetups that are very, very important to you. Because again, take the opportunity to build relationships in person and then you can sustain those relationships over zoom meetings. But when people see you in person, they take you a lot more seriously than if you’re just a person on a screen.

Dave Meyer:
All right, great. Last piece of advice. I have one more, you made me think of one more. It’s a hot take and we’re violating this idea on this trip, but go places not during the best season. We’re going to the Midwest in the summer. I would recommend going in the spring or in the fall when see it not in all of its glory. I have gone to the Midwest in the dead of winter, driven around in snowstorms and still like to market. That to me is a test of whether you really like it or is it just a really nice day. I got duped on this. I went to college in Rochester, New York. I went to visit in May and I was like, this place

Henry Washington:
Rocks.

Dave Meyer:
It’s so great. And then you realize it’s just freezing cold nine months out of the

Henry Washington:
Year.

Dave Meyer:
Do the same thing for your markets. Go to Arizona in the summer and see what it’s like. And I think it’ll tell you a lot more than if you just go on the best possible day.

Henry Washington:
And for us warm weather, live in people who are going to invest or thinking about investing in cold weather places. Make sure you adjust your expenses for things you’re not thinking about like snow removal and icing driveways and stairs and things. Those costs typically fall on the landlords and you need to spend that

Dave Meyer:
Money. All right, well, I’m really looking forward to this trip. It’s going to be a whole lot of fun. Hopefully anyone in the Chicago or Indianapolis can meet us on the trip. It’s a free meetup. Again, go to biggerpockets.com/roadshow, RS vfe there for free. Henry, I’m excited to see you in a couple of days, man.

Henry Washington:
I’m pumped, man. Let’s do this.

Dave Meyer:
All right, and thank you all so much for listening to this episode. Hopefully you learn something about planning your own trip to see an out-of-state market. If you have any questions, you can always head up me or Henry, either on biggerpockets.com or on Instagram. We’ll see you all again soon for another episode of the BiggerPockets podcast in just a couple of days.

 

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Retirement planning often feels like a checkbox exercise for high-income professionals and business owners. Work hard, save diligently, invest here and there—done, right? But let me ask you this: Are your cash flow calculations ready to support the life you envision after retirement?

It’s not just about hitting a magic number in your accounts; it’s about ensuring your money can keep pace with your dreams. The gap between what you think you’ll need and what you’ll actually need is often wider than expected.

But here’s the good news: With the right strategy, you can close that gap, secure your future, and even build a legacy that lasts for generations. Let’s dive in.

What Is Cash Flow Planning for Retirement?

Cash flow planning is about one thing: ensuring your income can cover your expenses—today, tomorrow, and for decades to come. But it’s not just about covering basics like housing and groceries. True cash flow planning should also account for the lifestyle you want, whether that includes travel, hobbies, or simply enjoying peace of mind.

Here’s what you need to consider:

  • Fixed costs: Consistent expenses, like housing, insurance, and healthcare.
  • Variable costs: Lifestyle expenses, like dining out, travel, or that dream car you’ve always wanted.
  • Inflation: The silent thief of wealth that makes everything more expensive over time.

For example, if your annual expenses today are $75,000, in 20 years, you’ll need about $135,000 annually to maintain the same lifestyle with an average inflation rate of 3%. This is a reality many retirees (or FIRE investors) underestimate, but accounting for it can help you avoid financial stress later.

Why Cash Flow Calculations Matter

If you’re like many high achievers, you likely have two major retirement goals:

  1. Live the retirement you’ve always dreamed of, without financial stress.
  2. Build a financial legacy for your family.

But without accurate cash flow planning, you risk falling into one of two traps:

  • Overconfidence: Assuming your savings will be enough, only to face shortfalls.
  • Paralysis: Feeling so overwhelmed by the numbers that you delay action, reducing the time for your investments to grow.

Take Sarah, a small business owner with a thriving career. She had savings and some investments, but she struggled to see how they could replace her active income. Through a strategic approach, including passive investments in real estate and real estate debt funds, she built a portfolio that now generates over $118,000 annually in passive income—enough to sustain her ideal retirement and create a lasting legacy for her children.

How to Confidently Calculate Your Retirement Needs

Let’s break it down into three simple steps.

Step 1: Define your lifestyle costs

What does your ideal retirement look like? Maybe it includes international travel, volunteering, or simply having more time for family. Start by breaking your expenses into two categories:

  • Fixed costs: Mortgage, utilities, healthcare premiums
  • Variable costs: Vacations, hobbies, or helping your loved ones

Be honest about what you’ll need—this isn’t the time to underestimate.

Step 2: Account for inflation

Inflation can erode your purchasing power faster than you might expect. Using an inflation calculator (like SmartAsset’s Inflation Calculator) can help you understand how your expenses will grow over time.

Example:

  • Today’s expenses: $75,000/year
  • 20 years later: ~$135,000/year (at 3% inflation)

Planning for tomorrow’s reality—not today’s—ensures your cash flow can support your future.

Step 3: Subtract guaranteed income

Identify reliable income streams, like Social Security, pensions, or annuities, and subtract them from your total expenses to find your income gap.

Example: If your annual retirement expenses are $100,000 and you expect $60,000 in guaranteed income, your gap is $40,000—the amount your investments will need to cover.

Bridging the Gap with Passive Real Estate Investments

Real estate is one of the most effective ways to create reliable income and protect against inflation. Let’s explore two strategies:

1. Real estate debt funds

  • What they are: Investments in real estate loans that yield consistent returns, often around 8% annually. 
  • Why they work: They provide predictable cash flow without the headaches of property management.
  • Example: Investing $500,000 in a debt fund at 8% generates $40,000 annually, closing the income gap in our earlier example.

2. Equity deals

  • What they are: Ownership stakes in cash-flowing properties like multifamily housing or self-storage facilities. 
  • Why they work: These investments combine cash flow (from rents) with long-term appreciation.
  • Example: A $250,000 investment yielding 7% cash-on-cash returns generates $17,500 annually—perfect for funding travel or reinvestment.

Lessons from Sarah’s Journey

Sarah’s success didn’t happen overnight. It was the result of consistent planning, a clear investment strategy, and a commitment to aligning her financial decisions with her goals. Over six years, she grew her portfolio by strategically contributing to investments that matched her desired lifestyle and legacy.

Final Thoughts: Your Retirement, Your Legacy

At the end of the day, retirement planning isn’t just about covering expenses—it’s about creating freedom, security, and impact. Accurate cash flow planning ensures you’re ready to live the life you’ve envisioned and leave a legacy that endures.

Want to dive deeper into these strategies? Explore them further in my book, Money For Tomorrow: How to Build and Protect Generational Wealth, where I break down the exact steps to secure your financial future.

Your future is worth it—start planning for it today.

Protect your wealth legacy with an ironclad generational wealth plan

Taxes, insurance, interest, fees, bills…how can you acquire wealth, let alone pass it down, when there are major pitfalls at every turn? In Money for Tomorrow, Whitney will help you build an ironclad wealth plan so you can safeguard your hard-earned wealth and pass it on for generations to come.  



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Could rental properties be your ticket to financial freedom? When today’s guest realized his “secure” corporate job wasn’t quite as secure as he thought, he plunged head-first into real estate investing and hasn’t looked back. In just three years, he’s built a real estate portfolio of several no-money-down rentals. Want to repeat his success? Then stay tuned!

Welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie podcast! When Joe Pozzuoli’s high-performing coworkers started being laid off one by one, he knew it was time to take control of his financial future. After trialing a few different side hustles (and even a full-fledged e-commerce business), he eventually landed on real estate. His first deal was a home run—a triplex that cost him zero dollars out of pocket and cash flows over $900 a month to this day!

Joe will show you how to find similar deals, perform multi-unit rehabs, and score discounted properties on real estate auctions. But that’s not all. Joe also shares how his investing goals have shifted over time. Once hell-bent on amassing 50 units, Joe’s now focusing on a smaller number of paid-off investments. What should YOU do—build a highly-leveraged real estate empire or a low-risk portfolio? Stick around till the end for the answer!

Ashley:
Today’s guest, Joe Poli watch colleagues lose their jobs overnight, pushing him to dive ahead first into real estate.

Tony:
Joe’s gone from a cautious high earner to building a thriving portfolio that pays him even while he sleeps. And today he’s breaking down every step he took to get there.

Ashley:
This is the Real Estate Rookie podcast. I’m Ashley Kehr.

Tony:
And I’m Tony j Robinson. Joe, welcome to the Real Estate Rookie podcast. Super excited to have you with us today.

Joe:
Yeah, welcome. It’s an honor to be here. I was very surprised to get the call, but happy to be here and be on with you too.

Ashley:
Well, Joe, you’re making great money and your career seems secure, but then your friends suddenly start losing their jobs. Take us into that moment when you first felt really vulnerable and realized everything could change overnight for you as well.

Joe:
Yeah, so the timeframe was March, April, May, 2020. Small little thing going on across the world called COVID. At that beginning, everything’s just kind of spinning out of control for a lot of people in those early stages. Obviously a lot of stress and uncertainty, not just for me, but again for so many people worldwide. And one of the things that started happening in my circle was I started to see friends and colleagues and people that I respected being furloughed or being let go, being downsized, being asked to take massive pay cuts. And the thing that struck me with that is coming from the corporate world, you always hear a term like hypo a high potential. Somebody who they’re doing great at their job, they’re also going to be able to do more, take additional steps. A lot of these people, they were hypos, they were tagged by their organization as top performers going to do more.

Joe:
And then all of a sudden, through no fault of their own, they’re being asked to take pay cuts or to go on a furlough or be let go. And so it was really just a wake up call for me where I just knew that, okay, something outside of my control can actually now impact my ability to support my family. And so it was just something I never thought was possible before. And so it really opened my eyes and made me think that I have to do something else on the side to make sure that if that does happen, me and my family would be okay.

Tony:
Joe, what a relatable moment. Because I think a lot of folks experienced that during COVID as well. So much so that it became the great resignation where so many people had these wake up calls around, am I actually doing what it is that I want to be doing? And you said something that was really interesting where you said you realized that your income could be taken away due to no fault of your own due to things completely out of your control. And the very similar thing happened with me Christmas Eve 2020. I ended up losing my job that I had climbed the corporate ladder, definitely had that high potential flag on my name as well. And you wake up one day and now you’re unemployed. So how do you go from that realization to maybe starting down the path of financial freedom? I know you dabbled in a few side hustles first, but something clicked late at night that made you realize that real estate was a way. So what were some of those frustrations you felt with those other side hustles and what eventually made you realize that real estate was the right path?

Joe:
Yeah, I did. I researched and I explored a bunch of different things, and ultimately what I landed on was e-commerce, which that was kind of the rage coming out of COVID, right? And so I did some things in moderate level of success, but nothing really game changing. And so we had this e-commerce store and had a product that was selling pretty well, and then all of a sudden one day the Facebook ad just crashed and sales tanked, and there was nothing else coming in. And so one night, late at night, it was like 11, 11 30, that’s late for my wife and I. We go to bed early, she’s sleeping next to me in the bed, I’m sitting up with the laptop open Googling, and just trying to research what happened and how to fix it. And then it just kind of dawned on me, I just had this moment of clarity right there.

Joe:
It’s like some people, they might be making 70, 80, 90 k, a hundred k, whatever it is, and then they’re trying to create an income on the side for freedom, flexibility, and they’re trying to generate 30, 40, 50 K on the side, and that provides them the ability to go out and do something else or that freedom they’re looking for. And it just kind of dawned on me like, wait, what am I doing? Why am I trying to be a Facebook marketer now that can actually just jump into real estate now? Because I had always in the back of my mind thought about real estate and getting into real estate, even when I was a young kid, I always thought I would just own a bunch of rental properties. And then for whatever reason, it just didn’t happen. I just never got into it. And so at that point, I was just like, I’ve got the income now. I don’t really need to go be an online marketer. I don’t need to build websites. I can just kind of pivot the way that we’re structuring our spend and our investing and we can just jump right into real estate now. And so that was probably, I don’t know, September, October, somewhere around there in 2021. And I’m an action taker. Yes, I do research, but I’ve always got a bent towards action. And so by January, 2022, we had closed on our first deal,

Ashley:
Joe, for someone listening that maybe has just decided today they want to do real estate, and this is the first episode they’re listening to of rookie, what are the first steps they should be taking when they decide the moment I want to invest in real estate? And maybe it’s things that you did or maybe things that you look back and think would’ve helped you if you would’ve done them.

Joe:
Yeah, I think research, understanding a little bit about real estate, knowing what you’re looking for, what you want to accomplish, and then talking to agents or brokers and letting other people know that you’re looking to get into real estate, that was really important for me. I immediately started going to our local real estate meetup and meeting other investors locally, and then we just started walking properties. But it was really that knowing that this is what I wanted, then talking to people who were in it and then just jumping in and doing the steps necessary, which is researching deals and walking properties.

Tony:
And Joe, all of that action, as you said, led you eventually to that first deal. But I also know that your first property felt a little intimidating at first glance, which is fair for most rookies. So what exactly shifted inside of you, moving from overwhelmed to saying, I can actually do this?

Joe:
Yeah, there was a triplex. It was listed on the market and I walked through it with my realtor. And so it was an old big house that had been converted at some point over time. And the downstairs was one really large unit that somebody started a renovation, but then you could tell they just kind of thought better of it at some point. There was one unit upstairs that was occupied with a squatter, which I didn’t know. In fairness, I didn’t know that she was squatting at the time, but I learned that out quickly after closing. And then the third unit was just crazy. So if you can picture Dorito bags, bush light cans, some empty, some not empty cigarette butts, old electricity bills, phone bills, and tons of pennies. I don’t know what it was with the pennies, but there was hundreds of pennies scattered throughout this unit.

Joe:
And so when we got into that unit, I literally, my head exploded. I was just like, oh my goodness, what is, this is going to take two years and a hundred thousand dollars. I just didn’t know anything. And so I walked away from there just thinking, no way. There’s no way that I can do this deal and make this work. And so I was talking to my realtor the next day, a couple of days later, and he’s a friend of mine and he’s like, Joe, I think you can probably turn that property around for 25 or $30,000. I was like, I didn’t buy that. He said, look, just take Aaron through. And Aaron is another friend of ours and he’s a contractor. The three of us walked through together and we’re just kind of walking through and our contractor’s just telling us, yeah, you can do this and this, and we can just do this and we can save here. And so it just kind of opened my eyes and at the end of the walk, I just asked him, I said, Hey, do you think that we can do this for 25, $30,000? And he did. And so at that point, when I knew that, I just kind of took a step back and said, alright, I mean I can have three units for about a hundred thousand dollars. That’s a great price per unit. And we made an offer literally at the end of that day and pulled the trigger on the deal.

Ashley:
Well, Joe, I think that is a great example of building your team and surrounding yourself with people who are knowledgeable in different aspects, especially in your local market. Your agent knew what a contractor would charge or what the material costs would be or whatever for a property like that. And that is just such a huge advantage of finding team members that are able to give you referrals or give you advice. And I say that because we always say, find an investor friendly agent, find an investor friendly lender, and those are key. But you really have to decide for yourself, what do you need an agent for? Is it just to show you properties? You already know everything about the market, you already know your buy box, you already know how to estimate a rehab. Is it that you need them to refer contractors because you don’t know any in the area? Agents can provide so much value. And I think that initial conversation when vetting an agent, just letting them know what you are looking for and what you need help with too, can be really beneficial.

Joe:
And I still work with both of those guys pretty consistently today. So it is a nice team environment that we have going on.

Ashley:
Coming up Joe’s surprising discovery about financing that flipped his stress into massive cashflow. We’ll cover that right after a quick word from today’s show sponsor. But first, today’s video is sponsored by Reim. If you’re in real estate, I am, you don’t want to lose deals juggling multiple tools. That’s where it simply comes in a true all in one CRM designed for real estate investors like us with recently, you can connect with motivated sellers through calls, texts, emails, or direct mail. Plus enjoy free skip tracing, cash buyer searches, customizable websites, and automated drip campaigns that turn cold leads into successful deals. Head over to reim.com/biggerpockets now to start your free trial and get 50% off your first month. Once again, that’s R-E-S-I-M-P i.com/biggerpockets. Okay, let’s get into the video. Okay. Well, Joe actually turned his fears into a financial breakthrough that changed everything. Let’s dive deep into that pivotal moment. So Joe, for us, that feeling, when your banker casually mentioned you needed $0 to actually purchase this property,

Joe:
It was a good feeling. I got connected with a local bank, just a small community bank, two branches, and when I contacted them about the property, I did ask, can I put some of the renovations into the loan? But even though they told me, yeah, yeah, we can do that. I didn’t really ask a lot more questions after that. And I had about $25,000 set aside that it was just earmarked. I was like, okay, this is what I am spending on this deal. Now I can tap into more if I need it. However, I don’t really want to go over that with the money that I brought to the table because that’s just kind of what I set it aside for. And so as we’re progressing through the timeline, we do the inspection, everything’s good, we do the appraisal, everything’s good, and we’re getting closer and closer to the closing date.

Joe:
And I literally have zero information. And most of that is just, I just didn’t know what I didn’t know and I didn’t know what to ask. But finally, I call the bank like, Hey, what do you need from me? How much do I need to bring? Can I bring a check? Do you need a cashier’s check? Do I need to put money in escrow? I kind of need to know. And she said, oh, you’re good. And I just kind of stopped and said, wait, what do you mean I’m good? She said, you don’t need to bring anything. I said, what? I literally just shock value said what? And so she walked me through it. And so the way they were structuring these deals at the time was they would loan 85% of the A RV. And the way the property, the way we walked through and with the appraiser and explained what we were going to do, it appraised at like $150,000.

Joe:
Well, the purchase price was 74. I was asking for 27. So I was well under the 85% threshold even with the closing costs. So I literally walked away with that property with nothing upfront out of pocket. Now, I did have some holding costs, and we went a little bit over our budget, but not much. So in the end, I had a little bit in it, but in terms of just that upfront, coming to closing my first deal, literally walked in with nothing in my pocket, closed with three units, and that property has averaged $900 plus cashflow since the time that I bought it, including vacancy and CapEx.

Tony:
Oh my goodness, what an amazing first deal man. And the parallels between our stores just get even stronger because the very first deal I ever purchased, I also went to a local bank that was in that town and they funded 100% of my purchase and my renovation, and I had $0 out of pocket to buy that deal. But what’s crazier is that you didn’t even ask for that. They just gave it to you. But I think it reinforces a point that Ashley and I make all the time of the power of working with the smaller local banks who know the area, who maybe even know the property, like, oh yeah, we’ve actually lent on that deal before. We’d love to get another mortgage on that deal. So Joe, you find this amazing loan product, and I want to talk about your future deals, but just out of curiosity, did you do multiple deals with that same bank?

Joe:
Yeah, so we have several buy and holds, and then we’ve done a couple of flips through them as well.

Tony:
And were all of them with that same structure?

Joe:
Most of them were. There was one that was a little bit different. I actually bought the property with my heloc, and then I did an immediate cash out refi for more than I paid, so they gave me money at the closing table when I did that deal.

Tony:
That’s even better, almost.

Joe:
Yeah. So all good deals with that bank so far.

Ashley:
So Joe, it seems like you’ve had great success, especially on the funding of each of these properties. Was there at any moment where there was kind of a pitfall or a challenge that you had to overcome?

Joe:
Yeah, I would say when we bought a six unit property, now the way this unit was, there was three units that were active, and then there were three unit. There was a three story kind of shell that just needed a complete gut job. And so this was one where nobody else saw the vision of the property other than me. And so coming to the right terms with the seller on the price was a little bit of challenge. We actually tried to lock that property up in July and we couldn’t come to terms, and then we ended up circling back and getting it in December. And at that point, interest rates had gone up quite a bit, so it cost me a decent amount by not closing that deal in July. But also because the renovations were so drastic, it just took a little more thorough detail and planning to really make sure that the appraiser saw what we were doing and that the value came back high enough for the bank to loan what I wanted them to loan. But it was a similar structured deal in that most of those renovations were covered by the bank. We did go about $20,000 over on that. But again, that it’s a six unit property that’s bringing in almost $6,000 gross a month because it’s a mixture of midterm furnished and just regular long-term buy and holds. So I was definitely okay with that, but it just took a little more planning and detail to get that one over the goal line.

Tony:
So Joe, your first triplex deal was almost too good to be true. What an amazing first deal. But how did that early success, because it can happen, did it influence the way that you approached your next investments and did it work in your favor? Was it more of an impediment having such a great first deal?

Joe:
Yeah, so the million dollar question is was it a great first deal or was it a terrible first deal, right? Because it was a great first deal from numbers, but it completely skewed my perception of what a deal should be. And so I would say that that hurt me actually a little bit because in those early months, I actually walked away for some really good deals because I didn’t want to put any money in. And so looking back, these were actually good deals and I killed ’em over a few thousand dollars. And we live in a small town, so I drive by those properties quite a bit. And they’re ones that I kick myself because in our market it’s super competitive with investors because our median home value is $170,000, the median income is 40,000. So there’s a high renting population, there’s a lot of investors. And so now

Ashley:
What market is this?

Joe:
This is Zanesville, Ohio,

Ashley:
Just so it can get more populated with investors by announcing it.

Joe:
Yeah, I was going to say, I don’t want anybody else coming here. All right. We got enough competition, but it’s small town Ohio. We’re about an hour east of Columbus,

Ashley:
Which Columbus is a hot market. People talk about

Joe:
Very, very hot, but they do not have the low prices that we have. And so the market is super competitive now, and so the prices that those homes hit for this is just not going to come up again. And so that first year, even though we closed on four deals, I probably could have closed another three or four more that I didn’t, because that first deal was so good that I had this standard in my head that just really wasn’t necessarily always achievable. I know a little bit better now.

Ashley:
And I’ve also seen here that you’ve actually not just bought properties off the MLS, but you’ve actually used auctions, found probate properties and even converted single family homes into duplexes. So what was different about these deals from just buying a standard rental property on the MLS? Were there any valuable lessons that you learned along the way?

Joe:
Yeah, so there was actually one property that almost encompassed all of those strategies. And it started off on market and it was on market for like 68. And when I walked it, if you can just kind of think of a house that a smoker lived in, poor ventilation, poor lighting, yeah, dark carpet, dark walls, not only picture, you can probably feel the atmosphere of that property. And so it sat on the market for a little while. We offered 45. They didn’t accept it. I came up to 50 and said, look, that’s the highest and best. They came back and said, we only want 68, we’re just going to let it go to foreclosure if we don’t get it. And so I thought that our offer was pretty fair though. And so I through the recorder site, because we found out that it was in an estate, and I don’t know the whole backstory, but the gentleman who was living there ended up in a nursing home and passing away.

Joe:
And so he had a brother who was several hours away and a lawyer that were kind of handling this. And so in on the recorder site, I found the bank that had the note, which is another bank here that I have a relationship with. And I called my broker there and I said, Hey, I know that based on what I could tell that my offer was more than what the note was left on that. And I said, look, they’re saying they’re going to let this go to foreclosure. Is there anything you can do to force their hand? So he gave me the number of somebody to talk to and I talked to them, and I don’t know the legalities of it. I don’t know what exactly was the situation. I just know they told us that they couldn’t force their hand. And so to me, it just seemed like that deal was dead.

Joe:
We completely walked away from it, and I just really didn’t think about it a lot after that. But a few months later, I dunno if it’s 4, 5, 6 months later, I saw it on an auction site. And so my initial offer on that property was 45. I ended up getting it at auction for 42. And so I got it for less than I actually wanted to get it for at first, which was just a slam dunk. And then that property was a single family that we converted to an up and down duplex because it just made sense in terms of what the money that I was going to need to put into get it up to speed, it made sense to make it a duplex and essentially double the rent that I was going to get. And then that property also had another strategy because the way that the timing worked out of it, when I bought it, we were still renovating our six unit building, which was a massive renovation that took almost six months. And then we had some other timing backup. So by time we got those units renovated and rented out, my year of seasoning was up. And so I immediately bird out and got almost all of my money back out from the renovation and the purchase price.

Ashley:
I think that one of the big takeaways here is just the patience of the deal, but also that actually was a really interesting idea, even though it didn’t pan out, was to contact the bank and say, Hey, I know you hold the note on this property to see if there was anything that they could do. That was definitely a great first step to take to getting the ownership of this property.

Tony:
But isn’t it so silly that the seller and the bank would’ve all been better off had they just accepted your initial offer at 45, right? It’s like, I wonder what the red tape is there that those kind of conversations can’t happen. So I dunno. I guess if you’re a real estate attorney of some sort, let me, Joe and Ashley know what’s going on there. But dude, I love that you’re not afraid to jump into different strategies. Just really quickly, give us the 32nd highlight. What was the process buying at auction? Were you actually at the courthouse steps? Was it all online? Just what was the quick A to Z of what that auction process looked like?

Joe:
Yeah, I was a hundred percent online. I registered, and this was not a site that I needed to have any money on deposit in escrow, so it was pretty seamless. I had to sign some disclosures upfront. And then during the auction, once I won it, and I was the highest bidder, I had like 24 hours to put $5,000 to wire, $5,000 to them. And then it was like another 40 days or so to close with the rest, and I just did a cash purchase with it to keep it moving pretty quickly. And the neat thing about that is the auction site actually had some brokers who were contacting me through the process and just helping me walk through it. So it wasn’t like something that I had to fully navigate a hundred percent on my own. There was someone on the other end who was making sure that I had the right instructions, filled out the right paperwork, and so it was actually pretty seamless, honestly, it was almost easier than buying something off the MLS

Tony:
Website. Was that Joe? What was the auction site? auction.com. Oh, there you go. Easiest one.

Ashley:
I guess one follow up to that I have is through the auction process. Did they allow anyone to look at the property or did you have that as an advantage that you had already seen the property?

Joe:
Yeah, it was closed, so they would not let anybody in. It was locked up. So I did have that as an advantage because I had the vision of what we were going to do with it anyway. And so having walked it and knowing exactly how we would convert it, I’d say that I had a leg up on most people.

Tony:
Now, Joe, you totally redefined your real estate dreams, shifting from quantity to really focusing on freedom. And next, I’ll have you go through the personal reasons behind this major pivot, all that after a quick break. Alright guys, we’re back here with Joe. Now, Joel’s goals underwent a dramatic shift from chasing doors to embracing freedom. And I want to get a better understanding of why exactly did that happen. So Joe, you initially envisioned managing 50 doors, but now you’re focused on owning fewer fully paid off properties, and this is a hot debate in the world of real estate investing. So walk us through the moment you realize that less debt meant more peace.

Joe:
And I think the first thing I would say to my, not my listeners, the listeners,

Tony:
They’re your listeners today, they’re your listeners today,

Joe:
Is that it is okay to pivot and it is okay to change your strategy. There’s just so much information out there and it can be easily to get caught up in the next fad, but I think you got to just find what is right for you. And so when I first got into real estate, it was all right, 50 doors in three years, and I just got that number by backing into the math. Here’s how much money I wanted to make a month. If an average door is going to cashflow this much, then here’s how many that I need. I want to do it in three years to move quickly. But as we got into it, I just realized that that’s actually not necessarily what I really want. Again, there’s so much information out there. I’m not saying what’s right and what’s wrong, but when I started to determine what was right and wrong for me, I just realized I can get to the same number with less risk and less stress, right?

Joe:
50 doors that are highly leveraged versus 15 to 20 that are fully paid off. They get me to the same goal. So my goal hasn’t changed really, just the strategy and the timeline of how I want to get there and how fast I want to go. So it was really more of a pivot on the path than it was on really where we want to end up. And so we are still buying some long-term rentals, but we kind of switched our strategy to focus on flips, and then we’re taking the profits from flips and then putting that into debt reduction. And by we, it’s just me and my wife because we self-manage. And so part of our mission is we want to help make our community a better place. And so we do. We get to know our tenants probably a little bit more than others.

Joe:
And again, not saying what’s right or wrong, it’s right for us. We do some unique things. We give every year in December, we give somebody free rent for Christmas, and so we help alleviate some stress in their life. And so for us, when I started looking at the bigger picture, I was like, man, do I want 50 tenants or do I want 15 to 20? Do I want 35 roofs or do I want 10, right? So less roofs, less furnaces that can go out. When I just really started define what real estate was going to do for me, it wasn’t about the amount that we had, it was about the cashflow that it provided. And so debt reduction seemed like the real natural next step for us and how we wanted to pivot our strategy.

Ashley:
Yeah, Joe, I think Tony and I have had similar realizations as far as property count. I was 30 by 30 and I missed it by one month. I got my 30th door a month after my 30th birthday, and it was like, it’s silly now to think of that the number, the unit count, you can do way more with, like you said, paying down your properties and not even having mortgage payments, but also focusing on the operations. If you have less properties, you could very easily be more attentive to those properties. And as far as stabilizing them and maximizing their potential, and that was a big realization for me. And like you said, the overhead, well, geez, you have 50 water bills to make sure that they’re paid 50 insurances to quote out every single year to make sure you’re getting the best premium. So there’s so many other things, and your property management software or different software you use, a lot of times that goes up by how many doors you have and it can increase. So every little thing, the more doors you get.

Tony:
Yeah. And Joe, I think there’s, like I said, I think it’s a hot debate in the world of real estate investing around paid off real estate, and there’s the numerical argument to be made or the mathematical argument to be made that having fully paid off real estate is a bad investment. Because in theory, if you have a house that’s worth $100,000 and say you’re getting over $5,000 a year in cashflow, that’s a 5% return. But I could take that $100,000 and go invest that and maybe get a 12% return or a 15% return or a 20% return or some other much higher number. So from return perspective, it’s reduced. But it sounds like what you’re focusing on is not necessarily maximizing the return, but it’s maximizing the peace of mind that comes along with having paid off real estate. And I think that’s a decision that each individual investor will have to make for themselves. But have you guys already started that process, Joe, of using the flip proceeds to pay down some of the debt?

Joe:
Yeah, we have. So we’re actually doing flips right now, so we haven’t made any large payments to debt reduction yet. I fully see what my tax implications are, but then we’ll strategically pay it as time goes on. And I will say this because it’s such a valid and interesting point, Tony, in terms of the returns and the percentages that everyone are looking at. And I love what you said, everyone’s got to make their own decision what’s right for them and for us, we live very simply. When I tell people what our house payment is, especially if they’re in a high cost living market, they kind of freak out on me. And I’ll just say it here, whether you use it or not, it’s like we pay $450 a month for our house payment. We’re not living in a shack. I see your face, Tony. See that?

Ashley:
Yeah. Especially Tony living in California.

Joe:
Yeah, yeah. And we drive paid for cars that we paid cash for. We used to do the whole Dave Ramsey thing. Our biggest line item is our giving. We give 25% of my take home every single month, but we are not, and since I started later in life, I have some other assets that are producing. I’m not dependent upon real estate for retirement. We have college funds set up for our kids. And so this decision, again, I’m not here to say what’s right or wrong for anyone, but based on our current situation, it works for us and it’s right for us, and we are not. I recognize that even in the long run that’s going to produce less wealth. I’m not doing the most in real estate in my town. I have friends who they’ve got six flips going on instead of two, and they’re buying up everything and that’s right for them, and that’s good. We’re doing this for different reasons. And so as we kind of took a step back and really evaluated, what do we want real estate to be? For us, debt reduction was the right choice, but it might not be for everyone. And that’s okay. That’s the great thing about real estate. It can really do for you what you need it to do for you based on your situation.

Ashley:
And Joe, I love that for you, that you have figured out what you want out of real estate investing. You don’t want more stress, you don’t want more headaches. You want financial freedom, but also you’ve figured out a way where you can reach that financial security, that financial piece faster by not inflating your lifestyle. You’ve realized that driving paid off cars is more of an advantage to you than buying a hundred thousand dollars truck. And that is a trade off that I think some people don’t realize. They think, wow, I’m making this money. I can go buy that dream car I always wanted, is that really your dream though? And so all our rookies listening, I want you to sit down right now after this episode and figure out what do you really want out of real estate investing? If it is financial security, how important is that to you?

Ashley:
And are there other things in your life that aren’t that as important that can get you to that financial security faster? So I think we’ve all probably had realizations of thinking there was something that we wanted, but realizing the peace, the happiness, and just being content is way better than actually having to work and stress just to be able to make the payment on whatever that item may be. Well, Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciated you coming onto the show and sharing your journey. Where can people find out more information about you?

Joe:
I think the best place is probably LinkedIn, so Joe Poli, P-O-Z-Z-U-O-L. I think we probably link to it in the show notes. You can find me on Instagram or Facebook, but you’re going to see a lot of pictures of my kids and nothing probably of value.

Ashley:
Hey, hey, your kids are valuable, Joe. They help you clean out the units. Come on, Joe.

Joe:
I don’t mean that. Yes, my kids are very valuable, but I’m usually just not even sharing about real estate or anything on those platforms. And with LinkedIn, I go through seasons of getting active and then not active. I’m trying to do less social media in my life, but LinkedIn’s probably the best place to connect. You’ll see me sharing tidbits on leadership and wisdom on corporate management and things like that, mostly there.

Ashley:
Well, Joe, we really appreciated your story and giving valuable insight to our rookie listeners. I’m Ashley, he’s Tony, and this is the Real Estate Rookie Podcast. Thank you for listening.

 

 

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