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Eight rental properties. That’s all you need to retire early.

Don’t believe us? Today’s guest went from corporate life to early retirement, generating over $100,000 per year in cash flow thanks to a small, powerful rental property portfolio. He didn’t start with a ton of money, and he had no experience. But he followed a simple, genius strategy: Save, buy, repeat, pay off.

Vicente Garcia wanted to build a college fund for his children. When he moved to a new home, he realized he had an income-producing asset right in front of him. So, he turned his old primary residence into a rental, recognized its potential, and a few years later bought his first full-fledged investment property.

By combining savings from his job, recycling his properties’ cash flow, and using 401(k) loans (an incredibly underrated tool), Vicente grew to eight rental properties. His goal? Not to scale, but to slowly pay off the portfolio. Now, in his 50s, Vicente has six-figure cash flow, a paid-off rental portfolio of eight properties, and only one thing on his mind: what’s next?

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In This Episode We Cover:

  • Don’t sell, rent instead! The life-changing effects of turning your primary residence into a rental
  • Don’t have enough for a down payment? Why a 401(k) loan could get you your first (or next) rental faster
  • Paying off your rentals vs. buying more: The strong argument for a small, debt-free portfolio
  • It’s not too late to start! Why you’re only around a decade away from retirement with real estate
  • Why Vicente says now may be one of the best times to begin investing in years
  • And So Much More!

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Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email [email protected].



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Real estate investors and their accountants have turned tax avoidance into a fine art, with a sophisticated panoply of techniques designed to keep Uncle Sam’s cloying hands at bay. However, in a plot twist, presented in the form of another of President Donald Trump’s freewheeling, shoot-from-the-hip ideas to increase affordability, Uncle Sam might be changing roles—from pillager to provider—by eliminating capital gains tax on the sale of single-family houses. 

For small investors sitting on a pile of equity in their personal residence, a potential tax-free windfall could be deployed for investments.

Why a Higher Capital Gains Exclusion Matters

The hits keep on coming because, for once, amending the capital gains tax law has received bipartisan support.

Following a massive increase in house prices since the COVID-19 pandemic, as of last March, homeowners have a mighty $34.7 trillion in home equity, according to Realtor.com. Current federal law allows homeowners to be forgiven capital gains taxes on $250,000 in profit from the sale of a single-family home if they file separately, and $500,000 if they are married and file their taxes jointly, so long as they have lived in the property for two of the previous five years. However, this law, with those numbers, was set as part of the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 and has never been adjusted for inflation, even as home prices have soared.

The discrepancy has left many homeowners house-rich but cash-poor, especially retirees who have lived in their homes for a long time. As their equity has increased, their fear has been that selling would expose them to a large capital gains tax bill.

This is especially true in affluent or rapidly appreciating areas. A 2025 analysis by the National Association of Realtors found that 29 million homeowners—about 34% of all owner-occupied households—now risk surpassing the $250,000 gain threshold as individuals, while around 8 million, or 10% of homeowners, could exceed the $500,000 cap as married couples filing jointly.  

Trump surprised many people when he was questioned in the Oval Office on July 22, 2025, by saying that ending all capital gains taxes on home sales was in the cards, instead of just increasing the limits, telling reporters, “We’re thinking about that,” when questioned. “If the Fed would lower the [interest] rates, we wouldn’t even have to do that,” the president added. “But we are thinking about no tax on capital gains on houses.”

Trump’s comments came two weeks after former Trump acolyte Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Ga., introduced the No Tax on Home Sales Act to eliminate capital gains taxes on primary home sales.

New Proposals in Washington in 2026

The argument for revising capital gains limits picked up steam toward the end of 2025, and over the last few weeks, Realtor.com reported that, during a National Association of Realtors (NAR) advocacy week in Washington, D.C., government officials said revisions to the capital gains limits were underway.

“Based on our best information and insight, there would be a significant increase in the number of homes that would be put up for sale [if the capital gains tax were reformed], but it would vary quite a bit between local markets,” Evan Liddiard, NAR’s director of federal taxation, said, citing studies commissioned by the group.

“Roughly a third of all homes that could be on the market could be subjected to that tax, and it’s locking people in,” Shannon McGahn, NAR’s chief advocacy officer, said at the event. “It’s great to see that there’s bipartisan support.”

Frank Cassidy, commissioner of the Federal Housing Administration (FHA), added that changing the law, a decision that needs to be made by Congress, could bring far-reaching changes to the housing market.

“The more transactions we can have going on in the private sector, and the more we can incentivize the supply side, is what will really have long-term effects,” said Cassidy. The FHA oversees the Department of Housing and Urban Development’s $2 trillion in mortgage insurance programs.

Realistic Exclusion Limits

Rather than ending capital gains taxes on personal residences entirely—as Trump touted in the summer—which seems unrealistic, Rep. Jimmy Panetta, a California Democrat on the House Ways and Means Committee, suggested, way back in September 2022, that the limits simply be doubled as part of his More Homes on the Market Act—$500,000 for single sellers of personal homes, and $1 million for married, filing jointly sellers. The bill has stalled twice since its introduction, but has recently gained traction, with 94 cosponsors—58 Democrats and 36 Republicans.

“This isn’t just a coastal issue anymore,” Panetta said of housing inventory strain. “This isn’t just a blue state or blue congressional district issue. This is a red issue. It’s a center-of-America issue, and I think that’s why we’re getting more and more momentum.”

A Seniors-Only Exclusion

Despite the increased number of homes on the market it could engender, changing the capital gains limits could still be a big revenue hit. That’s why Arthur Gailes, a research fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, estimated that 4 million to 9 million seniors could benefit from capital gain adjustments.

“It’s not an overwhelming thing that’s going to solve grand problems, but it would break up a logjam in the market, and that could be helpful,” Jim Parrott, a nonresident fellow at the Urban Institute, told Realtor.com. “And it’s targeted enough, it wouldn’t be that expensive.”

Final Thoughts: How Real Estate Investors Could Benefit From Changes to Capital Gains Exclusion Limits

When $1 million of tax-free money arrives on your balance sheet, you have options. Should Panetta’s bill pass, that is the potential amount of money some single-family homeowners could be sitting on in areas that have appreciated substantially since they first purchased their homes. 

Here are a few real estate investment strategies equity-rich homeowners could employ.

Sell, downsize, and recycle the money to buy rentals

This is perhaps one of the most obvious strategies. Assuming the homeowner has the appetite to be a landlord, using the tax-free proceeds from the sale of a personal home to downsize or rent and redeploying the money for a down payment on cash-flowing rentals could be a great way to build an equity-rich portfolio.

Sell and use the proceeds to move into a fixer-upper personal residence. Rinse and repeat. 

If landlording isn’t your cup of tea but you don’t mind living around construction, this is a safe way to build tax-free equity. Essentially, it means moving into a flip for two years while you renovate and then put it back on the market to realize the capital tax exclusion. It’s a good strategy if you don’t mind moving often and are handy, so you can do some of the work yourself and save on construction costs.

Combine downsizing with upgrading your existing portfolio through ADUs and renovations. 

If you’re happy with your existing portfolio and don’t want to add more houses but want to maximize what you have, using the surplus cash to add ADUs, convert basements and attics, and perform overall upgrades could help you generate more income without buying more units.

Use tax-free cash to pay off mortgages on rentals. 

Selling and downsizing and paying off the mortgages on your existing rentals could usher in retirement sooner than you thought possible.

Turn today’s primary home into tomorrow’s rental, and sell strategically. 

As long as you have lived in your rental for two years, you can rent it for a further three years (or any combination that allows two of the five years for owner-occupancy) and sell strategically. This allows you to gain rental income and realize appreciation while downsizing.

Sell and move into a small multifamily with an FHA mortgage. 

Selling your primary single-family residence and buying a two-to-four-family home with an FHA mortgage allows you to take advantage of FHA’s low down payment programs and live mortgage-free in a small multifamily, as your tenants’ rents will cover your mortgage, while possibly still having some cash on the side for repairs or emergencies.



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Most short-term rental hosts wake up and do the same thing: check occupancy, tweak pricing, and hope the bookings keep rolling in.

Meanwhile, they’re missing six much easier ways to add serious money to their bottom line. We’re talking $10,000, $20,000, even $50,000 in extra annual revenue that’s just sitting there.

I manage over 20 STR units that gross $1 million annually, and I can tell that most short-term rental hosts wake up and do the same thing: check occupancy, tweak pricing, and hope the bookings keep rolling in.

Meanwhile, they’re missing six much easier ways to add serious money to their bottom line. We’re talking $10,000, $20,000, even $50,000 in extra annual revenue that’s just sitting there.

I manage over 20 STR units that gross $1 million annually, and I can tell you the hosts who actually build wealth aren’t just filling calendars. They’re maximizing every guest and stay. 

I just dropped what might be my most useful video yet on the BiggerStays YouTube channel, breaking down all six of these strategies with real numbers and actual examples, from hosts who are using them right now. But if you want the quick version before watching, here’s the breakdown.

1. Sell Experience Packages

Your guests are already celebrating something: a birthday, an anniversary, taking a much-needed vacation. They’re excited, and they’re already in spending mode. So give them an easy way to make it even better.

Experience packages are simple:

  • Charge around $200 to the guest.
  • Pay your cleaner $50 to set it up.
  • Spend $50 on reusable supplies (LED candles, nice signs, serving trays).
  • Keep $100 in profit.

The key is “reusable items.” I used to run to Party City for balloons that got thrown away after every setup. Then I switched to quality, reusable stuff. Buy it once, use it forever.

Bonus: Guests take tons of photos with the setup and post them on social media. That’s free marketing you didn’t have to pay for.

2. Stop Paying Retail for Furniture

If you’re buying furniture at West Elm or HomeGoods, you’re doing this wrong. I use platforms like Minoan for almost all my properties now. It offers wholesale pricing on everything: linens, furniture, soap, decor, all of it. 

I know a host who furnished two Colorado cabins for $27,000 instead of the $36,500 it would’ve cost retail. That sauna she wanted? $5,000 instead of $10,000.

You’re not just saving money. You can afford better quality with the same budget, which means better reviews and higher nightly rates.

3. Upsell Extra Nights

Someone books Thursday through Sunday. You’ve got Wednesday empty before they arrive, and Monday empty after they leave.

That guest is already packing and driving to your place. There’s a decent chance they’d add another night if you just asked—especially with a small discount.

Most hosts never ask. They just let those nights sit empty. The smarter move:

  • Message guests after booking with a discount code for extra nights.
  • Offer early check-in or late checkout for a fee.
  • Use automation tools to do this for you automatically.

It’s cheaper to keep a guest longer than deal with constant turnover. And those extra nights add up to thousands per year.

4. Partner With Local Businesses

Your guests are spending money all over town: restaurants, boat rentals, fishing guides, wineries, and tours. Right now, you’re not seeing a dime of it.

Partner with these businesses for referral commissions. Most are happy to give you a promo code or affiliate link because you’re sending them customers.

Build a digital guidebook that includes your partnerships. Once it’s set up, it runs itself. Some hosts make an extra $3,000 to $5,000 per year just from doing this.

5. Make Your Property Shoppable

A guest sits on your couch and thinks, “I love this. I wish I had one at home.” Right now, that thought goes nowhere.

With platforms like Minoan, you get a QR code guests can scan. It pulls up everything in your property that’s available to buy: furniture, linens, coffee makers, and decor. They purchase it, and you earn a commission. You’re basically turning your rental into a showroom that generates passive income on top of your nightly rate.

6. Be Pet-Friendly, and Charge for It

“Pet-friendly” is Airbnb’s most-searched filter. If you’re not allowing pets, your occupancy is suffering.

Yes, pets create extra work. That’s why you charge for them. Here’s how:

  • $100-$150 flat fee per pet, per stay
  • Or $25-$50 per pet, per night

I have a friend who made over $100K last year just on pet fees. 

Guests with pets expect to pay extra, and they’re willing to do it. You open your property to a larger group of travelers, boost your occupancy, and make money.

Final Thoughts

These aren’t complicated or require buying another property or renovating. They’re small operational tweaks that take a few hours to set up. 

But here’s the thing: They stack. You’re not choosing one. You’re doing all of them at once.

A few packages here, some pet fees there, extra night upsells, affiliate commissions, and a couple of furniture sales, and suddenly, you’re looking at an extra $20,000+ per year, per property.

Most hosts are leaving this money on the table because they’ve never thought about it. Now you have.



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Every new real estate investor asks one question: How much cash flow should my rental property make?

For years, you’d hear things like “$200 per month per door” or “it has to hit the 1% rule”. But with so many of these rules outdated, we need a 2026 refresh on real estate cash flow. In today’s housing market, what is good cash flow for a rental property?

This is how much your rental properties should cash flow each month to help you reach financial freedom.

We’ll show you exactly how to calculate cash flow, the cash flow goal Dave personally sets for his portfolio, and when a property doesn’t need to cash flow based on other crucial factors. Plus, how to create your “worst case scenario” when analyzing a rental property, so even if everything goes wrong all at once, you’ll still be able to pay your mortgage, keep your rental going, and not lose sleep.

Is the cash flow you’re making enough, or are you falling behind? We’re sharing it all in this episode.

Dave:
How much cashflow should your rental actually make? Because it may sound great if a property will cashflow 200 bucks a month, but if you have to invest a hundred grand to buy that deal, that’s a bad deal. So today I’ll explain how to think about cashflow like an experienced investor, how to calculate the number correctly, how to decide what your minimum cashflow target should be. I’ll walk you through a simple deal example and explain why cash on cash return matters much more than the raw dollar amount you’re earning. And I’ll give you my take on how to adjust your cashflow analysis for the 2026 market. And I’m just going to go ahead right now and spoil this entire episode and say that my answer is 7%. I want a 7% cash on cash return by year two for any property I buy right now, but that is just my number. Yours is going to be different. And by the end of this episode, you’ll know exactly how to calculate your number. So if you want to stop guessing about IRRs and cap rates and start evaluating deals that will build your net worth. You can’t miss this episode.
What’s up everyone? I’m Dave Meyer, chief Investment Officer at BiggerPockets, and a guy who has literally analyzed thousands, I don’t know, maybe tens of thousands of real estate deals. And today I’m sharing how I think about cashflow as I continue to buy residential properties in 2026. We’re going to start today by just defining cashflow for anyone who is new around here or for people who are confused on how to calculate it because there’s a lot of bad information out there about what is cashflow. The proper definition of cashflow is taking your total income, so that’s all of your rent for a specific property, and then subtracting all of your expenses. That does include your mortgage and includes taxes and insurance, but it also includes some of those variable expenses like repairs, maintenance, vacancy, turnover costs. All of that has to be calculated before you figure out cashflow.
There are a lot of videos out there and people out there who say cashflow is just taking your rent and subtracting your mortgage payment. That is not correct, and that is not the cashflow that we are talking about in this episode. We’re talking about real cashflow here. So keep that in mind as we go on because if you hear people say, I’m getting a 10 or 15% cash on cash return, honestly, I don’t think it’s that they’re getting good deals. I think that they’re actually calculating it wrong. So make sure that you’re doing this right and you keep your expectations appropriate to the right number and the right way of calculating it. So now that we know what cashflow is, how do you go about measuring this? Because you can measure it in two different ways. The first way is the absolute amount, just how much money are you making each month per unit or per property?
You hear a lot of people say, I want to get at least a hundred dollars per door in cashflow. Now that is valuable. There is use to that, but that’s actually the way that I recommend you think about cashflow. Instead, I recommend you think about your rate of return. So rather than the total amount of dollars, I want you to measure how efficiently your dollars are earning cashflow. And to do that, you use a metric called cash on cash return. It’s really easy to calculate. All you have to do is take the total amount of cashflow and divide it by the total amount of money that you put into that property. So just as an example, if you’re making 500 bucks a month in cashflow, that’s $6,000 a year and you divide that by a hundred grand that you invested into this property, that’s a 6% cash on cash return.
And the reason I like measuring this is because as an investor, one of your main jobs is to figure out a way to use your money most efficiently because most of us don’t have unlimited amounts of capital to just keep going by property and property and property. So you need a measure of efficiency to make sure, hey, if I’m going to go buy a property, this is the best use of my money. And that’s why you need to use cash on cash return, your rate of return rather than your absolute return just as a sort of extreme investment, right? You might say, I’m getting 500 bucks a month. Again, we’ll use that as our example. That’s $6,000 a year in cashflow. If you invested a hundred thousand dollars 6% cash on cash return, that’s pretty good. That’s a pretty good cash on cash return right now.
But if you invested say 500 grand to earn that six grand a year in profit, that’s just over a 1% cash on cash return, which is not very good, you could do better in a savings account. So it’s not really worth your time or money to make that investment. So that’s why we use the rate of return. And for those of you out there who may be math averse or don’t memorize the formula I just mentioned, I don’t blame you first of all, but that’s why at BiggerPockets we provide tools that will calculate these things for you. You can go to biggerpockets.com/pro and use our calculators and they can give you all of this information. So during this episode, just concentrate more on the principles of understanding what these numbers mean. So when you go and use the calculators, you understand how to interpret the numbers that are in front of you. Alright, so we got to take a quick break, but we’ll be right back talking more about how much cashflow your rentals will make right after this.
Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m Dave Meyer. Today we’re talking about how much cashflow your rentals should make. Let’s jump back in. So with that said, that brings us back to our original question, how much cashflow should your rental make? And I want to be clear when I explain my number and what your number should be that I am not necessarily talking about day one cashflow. You’ll probably hear a lot of investors talk about this day one, cashflow walking cashflow. That’s the idea that if you go out and buy a property on the MLS off market, whatever the day that the person hands over the keys to you, you’re happily the owner of this new property that you’re going to be earning 3% or 5% or 10% cashflow. Now of course, if you can get cashflow on day one, that’s awesome, but the realities of the market in 2026 are that it’s pretty hard to find great cash flowing deals on the market with day one cashflow.
So when I think about cashflow, what I am thinking about is what is known as the stabilized cashflow. This is a term that real estate investors use to describe the period after they’ve executed their business plan and get the property to the state that it should be in. Because as an investor, what you’re likely doing in today’s market, the better deals that you can buy are places where one, you go and buy a duplex, let’s say, and it’s been owned by someone who’s owned it for 20 years and they haven’t really kept up with market rents. And so you buy that property and you bring those rents up to fair market value. That’s stabilization, right? That could be part of your business plan. You are getting it to be fair for what the market would bear. The other way that you do this and is very common is through value add.
So you buy a property that maybe has low rents because it’s not a great property, it’s not in good condition, it is not meeting the demands of the market right now. So you go out and renovate it, you add a new kitchen, you add a new bathroom, you put in new floors, you throw some paint in there, and then all of a sudden your rents go from a thousand bucks a month to 1500 bucks a month. And your cashflow goes from let’s say 2% cash on cash return up to 8% cash on cash return. So when I spoiled my answer before and said that my number right now that I’m looking for is 7% cash on cash return, I’m talking about stabilized. I’m not expecting 7% the day I go out and buy that property. I’m expecting it by the time I have gotten my business plan into place.
Usually I try to do that within a year, but it can take 18 months if you’re doing a slow bur or something like that. But my metric for cashflow is a 7% cash on cash return by stabilization. Now, if you’re wondering why 7%, there’s two reasons. First and foremost, you have to think about what else you can be doing with your money right now. I have to get returns that are better than my other options out there. I need to beat the stock market. I don’t know if I’ll beat crypto in any given year, but I want to beat the average for any other asset class out there. Historically, the stock market, which I think is the main asset class you should be comparing to returns, eight to 10%, depends on who you ask if you reinvest your dividends, a lot of stuff like that.
But eight to 10% is a pretty good rule of thumb. Now, real estate offers many ways of generating returns that aren’t just cashflow. But the way I think about it is if I can get a 7% cash on cash return, my loan pay down amortization is usually getting me 3% return, just doing that, then the tax benefits that I get are probably getting me at least a 2% return. So for me, if I get that 7% cash on cash return, I know I am getting at least a 12% annualized return, which is significantly better than the stock market. And if you’re thinking that’s not that big of a difference, the difference between eight and 12%, what does that matter? I should go out and buy the stock market because 8% I don’t have to do anything. And yes, for rental property investing, you’re going to have to work to get that 12%.
But lemme just give you a quick example here. If you invest at 8% return on, if you take a hundred thousand dollars invested in 8% return over 20 years compounded you’re going to have $466,000 at the end of those 20 years, that’s pretty great. You’re making 450% on your money over that time. But if you invested at 12%, just the difference between eight and 12%, you’ll actually have $964,000, nine and a half times your money. That is double what you get at 8%. That is the power of compounding. When you are compounding your investments, small differences in your rate of return make huge differences over the long run. And so for me, that’s why my minimum total annualized return is 12%. And if I can get a 7% cash on cash return, I know I can hit that 12%. So that’s the primary reason. The second reason, and I won’t get into all the details here, but I basically want my cash on cash return to be higher than the interest rate on my loan.
And I can get six and a quarter, six and a half right now on investor loans. And so if I can get 7% cash on cash return, that’s better than my interest rate and I really like that. So 7% is the number I am looking for, but I got to admit, sometimes I buy deals with less cashflow. Sometimes I buy deals with more because it comes down to your personal strategy and where you are in your investing career. And after this break, I’m going to show you how you can calculate your cashflow number. So stick with us.
Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m Dave Meyer talking about how much cashflow should your rental make. I shared before the break, what cashflow is, how to use cash on cash return rather than the absolute number, as your main metric for calculating cashflow and why? Generally speaking, I try to achieve 7% stabilized cashflow for the deals that I buy. But the truth is I don’t get 7% on every single deal. Sometimes it’s a little bit less, sometimes it’s a little bit more because there’s this kind of reality that exists in real estate, which is that cashflow and appreciation are a trade-off in markets or in properties where you’re going to get the most possible cashflow. They’re typically in areas or their properties that are not going to appreciate as much. That’s not always true, but that is a good thing to keep in mind as you think about these questions.
If you want maximum appreciation, then you’re probably going to get less cashflow. Just think about markets that have appreciated a lot over the last couple of decades. COVID was different, but if you think about San Francisco or Austin, Texas or Denver or Nashville, those are places where you’ve seen massive appreciation, cashflow there, harder to get, but they have great economies. Property values are probably going to keep going up, maybe not this year, but those are markets where you’re going to see good property appreciation. And so you have to think about what is more important to you at this stage in your life, appreciation or cashflow Again, earlier in your career. I would generally say appreciation later in your career cashflow. Now, I have said this a lot when I talk about the great stall and the upside era, I do not buy properties that do not cashflow.
So even though I just said all of that about appreciation, I do not think in this kind of market that it is prudent to buy anything that is not cashflowing. The primary strategy that works right now in this era is buying and holding on for a long time. And even though cashflow is probably not the best way to build your net worth over the next 20 years, holding onto those properties is, and cashflow is the way you ensure you hold on to your properties. Because if you buy a property that’s negative 200 bucks a month cashflow and you say, Hey, I got a good job. I could foot the bill, I’ll pay that out of pocket, sure, but if you lose your job, you might be tempted to sell that property. And with the transaction cost in real estate, you’re often selling at a loss even if your property value stays the same because you have to pay out your agents and commissions and taxes and all that.
And so the key to succeeding in the upside era is holding onto these rental properties for a long period of time and cashflow allows you to be really defensive. So I buy for stabilized cashflow always. I buy some deals that are negative cashflow the day I buy them. That’s actually quite common. There are a lot of times day one, cashflow is negative, but I have to have a plan in place to stabilize that property 12 to 18 months from now, and I’m going to have positive cashflow. So when you’re thinking about these trade-offs between cashflow and appreciation, I like to think of it as a spectrum. Whereas if there is a property that is amazing upside, right? We talk about the upsides on the show all the time, maybe it has great rent growth potential. Maybe it’s in the path of progress, there’s zoning upside.
If it has a lot of upside, I’ll take a lower cash on cash return, I would actually take a cash on cash return as low as 3%. If I think there’s really good upside, it’s in an amazing neighborhood. There’s a ton of investment going on around this property. I’ve done this several times in my career and they’ve been some of the best deals I’ve ever bought because I’m not focused on cash flow. I’m thinking this is a great opportunity to build equity to build my net worth, but I’ve got this 3% cash on cash return that ensures that even if it takes three or four or five years for those upsides to hit, that I can still hold onto this property and I’m still making a decent return. Now, on the other side of the spectrum, if there’s a property with limited upside, maybe it’s in a well established neighborhood that’s not really changing that much.
Rents are probably not going to grow. It’s just kind of a solid asset, but there’s not as much excitement around what the future holds, then I need a much higher cash on cash return. So I think at least an 8% stabilized cash on cash return there, maybe ideally even higher cash on cash return for that kind of deal. And I suggest that this is the way that you think about your own numbers. So again, first you’re thinking about your own goals and whether you want to favor appreciation or cashflow. And then when you’re evaluating any individual deal, you have to think about, why am I doing this? If I’m buying it just for cashflow, that’s totally fine. But if you’re young in your career and you’re saying, I’m just trying to build my net worth now so that I can get cashflow 10, 15 years from now, then you might take that lower cashflow deal.
If it’s in a great neighborhood, just make sure that those upsides are actually there, that you’re going to be able to do value add, that you’re going to be in the path of progress. Maybe there’s that zoning upside. Maybe you think rents are going to go up if all those things are there, you can take a lower cash on cash return today. So that’s how you figure out your own number. And before we go, there’s just one other thing that I think is really important. I try to mention a lot on this show, but I do think is super important in today’s day and age. I always, from the first day that I started as a real estate investor 16 years ago until today, I underwrite pessimistically. I don’t like looking at best case scenarios. Putting that in the BiggerPockets calculator and then hoping those things turn out, that is not what you should do.
I know it’s exciting to think you’re in this great neighborhood and rents are going to go up, but what if they don’t? I really recommend to you to underwrite. In the worst case scenario, don’t assume rents are going to go to the top of the market. Don’t assume amazing appreciation. Make sure to take into account that your taxes and your insurance and your expenses are probably going to go up because this is the way to protect yourself in today’s day and age. And I know there are people out there saying, this property is going to get a 12% cash on cash return, but their assumptions are very optimistic. They’re a little bit, I would say speculative personally. I know this sounds crazy, but I would rather take a 5% cash on cash return deal that I underwrite pessimistically than a 12% cash on cash return that an agent or a wholesaler or someone else is saying that I can get.
I just think that’s the prudent thing to do. So my last two pieces of advice to you, one, calculate your cashflow properly. Do not omit any expenses in there. And number two, be very careful about the assumptions you put into the calculator because the BiggerPockets calculator, it’ll do the math right for you, but if you put crazy pie in the sky numbers, that’s on you to be honest. And so be really conservative with your numbers and calculate this right, and use these rules of thumb. If you do that, you will be able to find cash flowing deals even in this market. It may not be day one cashflow, it may not be the 1% rule. That thing has been dead for a very long time. But if you follow the instructions we’ve given here, I promise you, you can find these kinds of deals out there in the market today in almost every market in the United States. So hopefully this has helped you see that cashflow is alive and well. You just got to think about it in the right way. That’s what we got for you today on the BiggerPockets Podcast. I’m Dave Meyer. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode. We’ll see you next time.

 

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Dave:
There’s a prominent theory originated by real economists, not just rogue YouTubers, that the real estate market runs in 18 year cycles and at the end of each cycle there’s a crash. And according to proponents of this theory, it accurately forecasted the 2008 crash. And now in 2026, exactly 18 years after 2008, the cycle is coming to an end yet again today on the market, we’re digging into the 18 year housing cycle theory and what, if anything, it can tell us about the future of real estate. Hey everyone. Welcome to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer, chief Investing Officer at BiggerPockets. I’m also an investor and analyst, and these days I find myself a housing market theory fact checker, and today I’m digging into a theory about real estate markets that has existed for almost a century and according to proponents accurately called the last two real estate downturns in 2008 and previously in 1990, the theory is called the 18 year housing cycle, and it is true that one of the big proponents of the theory, Fred Harrison, a British economist, actually called the 2008 housing crash in 1997, a full 11 years before it happened.
So naturally, because of that accurate prediction and some economic research into the topic, people are rightfully wondering if we’re about to see the big decline at the end of this cycle. After all, it is now exactly 18 years after 2008, and there are some very famous, very popular YouTubers, people on the internet who talk about economics and housing, and they’re pointing to this data to support their forecast about housing market activity in the coming years, most notably saying that we’re due for a crash. And it’s not just people on YouTube. Even the Cato Institute talks about this, and I saw it actually being discussed on a Harvard University website. This theory has some legs. So today on the show, we’re digging into the 18 year housing market theory and breaking down what it can and cannot teach us because spoiler here, there is a little of both here, in my opinion.
It’s not all right, it’s not all wrong, but there’s a good amount that we can learn and take away from this research. So today on the show, first we’re going to just cover the theory itself. Then we’ll talk about how it came to be its track record in predicting cycles, what proponents say and detractors say, and then I’ll give you my own personal opinions about this theory and what can be learned from it. Let’s dig in. Alright, so here’s the theory. The 18 year housing cycle theory goes a little bit like this. Land is finite. You can’t make any more of it when demand goes up, which makes it prone to speculation. And when there is speculation and people are pouring money into land and real estate, eventually prices, outrun incomes, you might notice that is going on right now. That does happen, and then when no one can afford land or property anymore, the bubble pops.
So that’s the basic logic behind the theory, but let’s dig into sort of the different phases of the cycle that exist at the end of the previous crash. That is when the next cycle starts. This is when land prices are cheap, right? This is the beginning of the cycle where things are really inexpensive and that affordability is really what starts a recovery process. People can afford property again, they start buying things, vacancies on rented land start to fill up. Banks start to feel a little bit better about things. Credit starts to loosen up so people can buy a little bit more and more. As this is happening, developers see that things are getting better and they start to build. They see that the cycle is starting again and they start to add more inventory. They start to develop land. We see this all the time according to the theory.
This takes about the first seven years of the 18 year cycle. You’re seven years in, developers are starting to build and at that point there’s a little dip according to the theory, right? Seven years in, people are saying, ah, things have been growing for a while. Time to pump the brakes a little bit and you see a dip in prices, a dip in activity, not quite, but roughly halfway into the cycle. But then after that little dip, this little pause that goes on, the theory says that there is an explosion. It’s sort of this boom stage where for another 7, 8, 9 years, there is just massive speculation. People are just pouring money into the market. You sort of lose touch with the fundamentals. Prices go absolutely insane, and then after many more years of that, about 14, 15 years into the cycle, according to the theory, prices become unsustainable and then they crash.
And that’s the cycle, right? This cycle happens on repeat every 18 years according to this theory, and it sort of makes sense, at least logically, right? It actually is, in my opinion, quite similar to research that exists and theories about markets and economic cycles in general. This isn’t, in my opinion, super unique to real estate. If you look at just the business cycle in general, you see a relatively similar pattern. Each cycle starts at the end of the last one at the crash period, there is an expansion, then there’s a peak, then there’s some sort of recession and the market starts all over again. But this theory goes beyond just the general business cycle and claims to at least have more specificity. The theory has actually existed for a long time. It was first introduced by a guy named Homer Hoyt. He was an economist at the University of Chicago and back in 1933, he released a paper after studying land prices in the Chicago area from the 18 hundreds up until 1933.
But since then, even since the 1930s, this theory has prevailed. It has been carried on by other economists. A guy named Fred Berry used it to make some accurate predictions and most recently and most notably by an economist named Fred Harrison, who forecasted the recession of 19 91, 8 years before it happened using this theory, and he also famously called the 2008 housing market crash back in 1997. So this is why the theory has so much legs right now is that this guy has called the last two downturns, 1990 just for reference, was a lull in the housing market. Prices did go down a little bit. Obviously we all know what happened in 2008, but this guy, Fred Harrison, has been using this theory and has predicted the last two crashes, and so that’s why people are paying so much attention to this right now. Now, I should mention, and we’ll get to this more, that this guy, Fred Harrison does have a new book out and he predicts that peak housing is coming in 2026, which is why again, people are talking about this right now.
Now of course, me being, me being a data analyst, I did not just want to take everyone’s word for it. I wanted to actually go and find the data about these cycles and see if this pattern actually exists for myself, and I did find the data. Basically, it goes back to 18. 18 was the first time we saw this data that land peaked. Then again in 1836, exactly 18 years later, we did see land peak again in 1854. Exactly 18 years later, we saw it peak again. Then the numbers go off a little bit, but it’s still roughly 18 years, give or take a year or so. We saw it again in about 18 72, 18 90, 19 0 8, and then in 1925 again, so when you look at that, it’s kind of compelling, right? You look at this, and it’s pretty darn close to 18 years for about a century Now, from 1925 to today though the last a hundred years, the data is a little less compelling, so there really wasn’t a peak in land pricing and it doesn’t follow the cycle at all in the 1940s.
If it was 18 years, exactly, you would’ve seen this happen right in the middle of World War ii. Now, proponents of this theory say that the war sort of threw the cycle off and then it started again in 1973, but as we’ll talk about later, that is a 50 year gap where the cycle does not repeat. But in 1973, land prices did peak again and they did peak again in 89. That was 16 years, but proponents of the theory again, say it’s pretty close, and then we saw it again in 2006. I know people say 2008, that’s when the financial crisis happened, but land and home prices actually did peak in 2006. It was roughly 16, 17 years again, and now we’re roughly close to that. But if you believe the theory every 16 to 20 ish years, with the exception of those 50 years from 1925 to 1973, a pattern does repeat.
Again, it’s not exactly 18 years, but proponents of the theory think that this average is cult enough to make these types of predictions. So if you follow this data, it follows that a crash would come right now and it has somewhat accurately predicted the last two crashes. Now, there’s a lot to break down here, but before I give you my personal take on it, I want to share with you some other research about what other experts say about this, both in support of the theory and against this theory, and we’re going to get to that to determine does this actually have legs? Does this mean there is going to be a crash here in 2026 because the cycle has ended? We’re going to get to that right after this quick break.
Welcome back to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer getting into the 18 year housing cycle. We’re talking about this because it seems to be a lot on YouTube. It’s in the BiggerPockets forums in the communities right now. People are talking about this, and I shared before the break the history of the theory and some of the data that does show that going back 200 years, there is some evidence that there is a pattern that repeats somewhat regularly. There are some exceptions. It is not perfect data, but there’s enough that we should break this down. So let’s look at the arguments for and against this theory, and we’re going to start with the arguments for, I looked hard for a lot of evidence of it, and basically the main thing, the piece of evidence that people point to is the prediction of the 2008 crash. This is what proponents say over and over again is the reason that there’s going to be a crash in 2026 because it was an impressive call.
I mean, if you called that in 1997, that seems like you’re an oracle. You have the crystal ball that we all talk about because you kind of nailed it and people think that if they predicted it once, it will happen again. The other piece of evidence that people point back to was that it really was fairly accurate. There was a regular cycle of land values peaking and crashing in the 18 hundreds. That part is true. If you look at 18, 18, 18 36, 18 54 and so on, it was pretty darn close to 18 years for honestly about a century. That pattern really did exist. Now using that pattern and frankly that pattern alone, Fred Harrison, the proponent who the guy who made those two calls is saying that there is going to be a crash in 2026, and he said it will be worse than 2008. So that’s basically the theory for it.
What about the arguments against it? Well, there are a couple. The main ones are, number one, the giant gap in evidence from 1925 to 1973. It’s a pretty big gap in my opinion. That’s nearly 50 years without evidence of the cycle. Now, proponents point to World War II is the reason for that, but it is still, even if you believe that, that’s a long time without the pattern repeating and then without, frankly, a lot of evidence. Proponents say that it started again in 1973. That’s not really true. There was a peak in 1973. Then it kind of peaked again in 1979, and so that was only a six year gap. Now, there is debate among proponents about if this happened and whether it happened, but basically from what I found, they can’t really explain it in any convincing terms. The next argument against it is that it’s not precise.
It’s not actually exactly 18 years. For a couple of years in the 18 hundreds, it was really 18 years, but it’s kind of just an average, which opponents say defeats the entire purpose of the measurement in the first place because if you’re using this to make investing decisions or to predict the cycle, the difference between 15 or 16 years and 20 years kind of matters, right? If you get out of the market too soon, you get into the market too quickly. Kind of defeats the point. Imagine someone saying that the stock market crashes eight years and you acted on that and it didn’t turn out and they said, oh, well actually that’s just an average. Sometimes it’s five, sometimes it’s 10. Kind of loses the purpose, right? What good is it if you cannot actually use it to make investing decisions? It kind of doesn’t matter.
Another argument against it is that the theory does call for mid cycle dips, and that didn’t really happen this cycle, right? If prices crashed in 2008, they bottomed in 2011, you would’ve expected some dip in housing prices during the 2010s. There was a little bit for kind of a minute in 2008, but not really according to this theory, so it didn’t really hold up there. So those are the arguments for and against it, and honestly, you can have your own opinion about this. There’s no right or wrong here. It’s just a theory. There’s no law here, so I will give you my opinion. I spent a lot of time researching this and basically where I come out on this is there are some things that we can learn from this cycle, but not everything. For example, will nominal home prices peak in 2026, and by nominal I mean non inflation adjusted prices.
This is what you see on Zillow or realtor or whatever. That’s a nominal price. Will they peak in 2000? Yeah, I think so. I’ve said that for a while now. I actually think we’ve been in a correction for a little bit because real home prices have been pretty flat, but amazingly, I actually do think the theory is probably going to be pretty close on this one, and we’re going to see nominal home prices peak for this cycle in 2026. That shouldn’t be news to you. If you listen to the show, I’ve been saying it for a while, I expect prices to be pretty flat this year. I don’t expect them to go up if they do a little bit, and if anything, I’m leaning on the side of one 2% nominal home price declines this year, and so the theory amazingly, somewhat, I think might be kind of accurate on this.
That is one big part of this to pay attention to in general. I also agree with the idea that land is finite. Then speculation does happen in the housing market. That absolutely does happen. There is this term irrational exuberance that does create asset bubbles. It’s usually fueled by debt, and corrections do happen because people start overpaying for things. This is just true. If you look at history, asset bubbles do exist. They do happen in cycles, but they’re not really unique to real estate. These cycles exist in most debt back markets. They certainly happen in the stock market. We even see them in art markets or collectibles markets. These kinds of cycles do exist, and that is something that we can learn from. Actually, if you know J Scott, he’s a regular contributor to show he is written a lot of books. I co-wrote real Estate by the Numbers with him.
He put out a great book, recession Proof Real Estate Investing is what it’s called, and he talks all about the business cycle and how there are different cycles in real estate and how what you should be doing as a real estate investor should change based on where we are in those cycles, and I 100% agree with that. If you are in a recession, you invest differently. If you’re in an expansion, you invest differently If you’re in the peak or the trough, you have to do different things in your investing decisions based on what’s going on around you. That’s the whole premise of this show is that we are talking about what’s going on in the market. We’re talking about data and economics so that you know what to do with your investing with your portfolio based on where we are in the market cycle. I highly recommend if you have not read that book, it’s a really quick read.
It’s a pretty slim little book. If you just want a primer on how to behave in different parts of the market cycle, check out Jay Scott’s book, recession Proof Real Estate Investing. I highly recommend it. You can get it BiggerPockets, Amazon, wherever. So those are two things that I take away from the theory cycles are real. They absolutely are, and it might be right this year, right on 18 years, if you time it from 2008 to now, it might be right peak prices actually were in 2006, so I think we’re about 20 years out, but proponents of the theory say that this year is going to be the time that it corrects, and I think we are already in that correction, so I do agree with that. Again, that said, I do not buy the idea that real estate works in precise cycles of exactly or honestly, even roughly 18 years.
Economics just don’t really work that way. It ignores the human element of the market. It ignores geopolitics. It ignores government intervention to help prop up the economy and it ignores new policies that exist and are always being introduced into the market. It just doesn’t happen like that. Even if you look at theories of recessions, right? A lot of people say that the broader economy operates on a seven year cycle and that is the average, but guys, an average is a conglomeration of tons of data. There are years that it’s five, there’s years that it’s 11. There’s years that it’s two. That is an average and an average is not a forecasting tool. You cannot say because the average has been there’s been a recession every seven years on average that it’s going to happen exactly seven years from the last one. It doesn’t happen like that.
Just look at this. I mean, yes, we kind of in theory had a recession in 2020, but from the time the last one started, that was 11 years, some people thought we were in a recession in 2022. Some people think another one’s coming this year. The reality is you actually have to look at the evidence on the ground that is going on in front of your eyes to make predictions. You cannot just say it happens like clockwork every seven years. I think everyone logically understands that it probably just doesn’t work that way, and if you break down and examine this theory in more detail, it kind of breaks down. Look at the evidence. Since World War ii, there is this massive gap between 1925 and 1973. That’s nearly 50 years where the cycle did not repeat. Then from 1973 to 1989, the next cycle that proponents of this theory site is only 16 years.
It’s not 18. Then the next one is to 2006, people call 2008, but again, housing peaked in 2006. That was only 17 years and now we’re in 20, 26, 20 years later and there hasn’t been a crash. Yes, there is a cycle, but it is not precisely 18 years and since 1925, it’s actually never been exactly 18 years. In fact, the only real evidence for a precisely 18 year cycle actually comes from the 18 hundreds. Just let that sink in for a little bit. It’s from the 18 hundreds. I think we can all agree that things have changed a little bit since then. We are no longer an agrarian economy. We’re speculation drives the real estate market. There are still some patterns that exist, right? Property still has speculation. Absolutely. I’m not arguing with that, but land speculation, which they cite in the 18 hundreds as the core of this theory is not really what’s going on in the market.
Back then, we didn’t have a central bank. We didn’t have long-term fixed rate debt like a 30 year mortgage. We didn’t have a fiat currency. There are so many differences between the economy today and the housing market today and what was going on in the 18 hundreds. Frankly, I don’t really think that data is relevant anymore. It’s kind of like if someone started telling me that at 38 years old, that’s how old I am, I had reached my full life expectancy in the United States because that’s what the data from 1850 told us. That was life expectancy in the 1850s, but I don’t take that too seriously because just so much has changed with the medical system and reality. Just like so much has changed with the housing market and the economy, we can’t really rely on data and patterns from the 18 hundreds. So much has changed.
That data was good when it existed back in that kind of economy and that reality, that data did make sense. If I was sitting here in 1880 and someone said, Hey, there’s an 18 year housing market cycle, I might take it more seriously, but in 2026, I am not banking my own real estate investing decisions based off of data from the 18 hundreds. Okay, so that’s one thing. The data is fuzzy at best. Next, let’s talk about real versus nominal home prices. This is my favorite thing to rant about recently because it’s important, but basically people are saying that housing prices are going to crash or peak this year and start declining in nominal terms. That might be true, like I said, but as an analyst, what I try and look at a lot is real home prices. This is inflation adjusted home prices, and when you look at it that way, the cycle actually already ended.
Home prices have not been going up in real terms for the last three years. In fact, if you look at it, home prices have been pretty flat for the last three years in real terms. Now, I know you have been seeing prices rise on Zillow and Redfin because those are nominal. They are not doing inflation adjusted terms, but if you do it the way that I think you want to, if you were predicting cycles for you as an investor, if you want to look at things in nominal terms, go ahead and do it. That makes total sense. But for predictions, if you actually look at the way real estate cycles works and trust me, I I do all the time. If you look at the way cycles work, real home prices, inflation adjusted home prices are a much, much, much better predictor of where the cycle is than nominal home prices and if you look at that, we’re in the flat part of the cycle.
It actually ended three years ago. That’s another reason I don’t really buy this is that it uses nominal home prices, which doesn’t really tell you the true genuine change in home prices that I think we as investors need to be paying attention to because that’s where the alpha comes from. That’s where you actually get these huge gains in wealth and value is when real home prices change and this uses nominal home prices. One other thing I just want to mention is that back in the 18 hundreds, it was a much weaker federal government. They were not as interventionist in economic cycles as we are now, for better or worse, both sides of the aisle do this. It has become politically untenable to have a recession or especially a housing crash. That is something that politicians will avoid at all costs. They will implement policies and stimulus and quantitative easing or whatever they got to do to try and keep these things going up, and so that is another reason I don’t really buy into this theory is that we just have a more interventionist government than we had when this data was accurate, and so that’s another reason to think that the cycle working on perfect 18 year increments is probably not true because the government is devoted to extending that cycle as long as possible.
I don’t personally think they can do that forever. I think it actually increases the long-term probability of bubbles and crashes, but that is just what they’re doing. I don’t think it’s a good idea, but that is what they do. So that’s my general take on the theory. If you want to learn something from it, learn that the housing market operates in cycles. They might be right that nominal home prices will peak this year. I personally think that is correct, but I personally put almost no stock in the number 18. I do not think that 18 is magic, just like I don’t think there are recessions every seven years as a housing analyst. I just have seen too much data. I know that it doesn’t work this way and I don’t think that you should take really any stock in the number 18 and you’re much better off listening to the show or reading a newsletter or whatever, figuring out what’s going on in the market today and where we are in the cycle for yourself.
That is the most important thing that you can do if you want to time the market. Now, I personally don’t time the market in a way where I’m like, oh, I’m getting in or out of the market, but I do change my tactics based on where we are in that cycle and I recommend that you do too. That’s just smart investing, so that’s another theory, but I do want to talk about one more topic. The theory says that prices will go down and I actually agree, but Fred Harrison has said in 2026, the market correction that is coming will be a crash quote worse than 2008, and I want to get into that because if I agree that housing prices are going down, does that mean we’re going to see this catastrophic crash? We’re going to get into that right after this quick break. Stick with us.
Welcome back to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer going over the 18 year housing market theory. I’ve talked about what you can learn from this mainly that there probably will be home price declines this year at least. I think that that’s my base case at least a little bit, and that the market absolutely does work in cycles fueled by speculation and debt and unaffordability, and there are evidence of some of those things right now we do have low affordability. We have had prices run up in a massive way, so there is reason people are looking at this theory and saying, Hey, I actually see evidence that this is repeating again, and some of the most diehard proponents are saying this means that we’re going to see a massive crash worse than 2008. Now, I want to dig into that a little bit because I don’t believe that just because I am saying that they might be right, that 2026 is the peak phenomenal home prices for this cycle.
That does not mean I am predicting a crash, and frankly, when anyone says that the next cycle is going to be worse than 2008, when someone says that it’s just nonsense. I’m sorry. There is no data, there is no evidence that suggests this is happening. It is just to get attention and nothing more. There is no one I know, not a single respected economist or forecaster who’s looking at data on the ground stuff that’s happening today and says, I see a crash coming. Instead, it is people pointing to theories like this that are overly simplistic. Use data from the 18 hundreds for fearmongering. That’s it. Pure and simple. It is fearmongering. People want there to be a crash or they want attention and they’re using this theory of 18 years that was accurate in the 18 hundreds to scare people. That is basically what I think is going on, but I’m not just going to say that and denounce them.
I’m actually going to share with you real information and real data about what is going on that supports my belief that we are in a correction and not a crash. 2008 was a crash that was fueled by speculation. That is absolutely true. We saw wild speculation in the early two thousands and that was made much worse than normal. Speculation is something that happens in the housing market and there are corrections to correct that, right? That’s the definition of a correction, but what got so bad in 2008 is that speculation was able to get far worse than it ever should have because people were giving away ridiculous loans that they shouldn’t have given away. If you’ve heard of the Ninja loan, it’s no income, no job. There was no income verification on a lot of these loans, and so people who could not afford to speculate were speculating, and that is what created the crash.
It built stuff up so much and it allowed people who could not afford to take a hit on their speculation. Sometimes investors speculate knowing that it’s risky, but in 2004, 2005, 2006, the way that worked in the United States, it allowed people who did not really qualify for this kind of speculation to get into it, pump up prices higher than they could ever been, and then when property values went down and adjustable rate mortgages kicked in, people could not pay their mortgage that was essential to the crash. One, the debt that they shouldn’t have, and two, that most of these people could not service their debt. Once their adjustable rate mortgages happened, they were giving away these loans saying, Hey, come in 0% interest rate, 2% interest rate for the first year. Then during the crash, those interest rate adjusted to five, six, 7%. No longer could these people afford these loans because they could never qualify for these interest rates in the first place.
They stopped paying their mortgage, they got foreclosed on that had an influx of supply to the market, and that’s what caused the actual crash. That did happen in 2008, but the idea that markets always crash at the end of the cycle, it’s wrong, and it’s honestly, in my opinion, the invention of the media or particularly social media. I don’t think even 20 years ago, 30 years ago, people were talking about housing crashes because it’s happened once since the Great Depression, and that was 2008. The idea that a cycle ending means a crash is not accurate. The stuff that happened that I just described in 2008 to make that cycle very unique is not happening right now. Could it happen again? Yes. Could something else happen that make the next cycle or this cycle result in a crash? Yes, absolutely, but the idea that all cycles end in a crash is absolutely not true.
The downturn that Fred Harrison predict in 1990 wasn’t a crash. It was a correction. Prices were down for six quarters and they were down just a little bit in real terms, so it was not a crash. That was a normal correction, and frankly, I think it’s good when that happens. Corrections make things correct. They get you back to normal prices, what prices should be, what the market can actually bear, and most of the time these things are relatively mild, particularly in the housing market. They’re pretty mild. In 2018, actually prices went flat and they actually dipped a little bit. Do you remember anyone talking about a crash? I don’t. It wasn’t happening. People weren’t talking about it. It’s just that people have a lot of economic fear right now, and by saying the word crash, it gets people riled up. It gets ’em to click on their YouTube, watch, their social media, whatever, but please remember, a massive crash is not the normal conclusion of an economics or housing cycle.
Those are the facts. Now, I’ve talked about this a lot on this show. Is this cycle going to end in a crash? It’s an important question. It’s a legitimate question, and we talk about it all lot on the show, but I will go into a little bit just to make sure we are all on the same page. A full crash happens when there is more supply and demand. That is basically how prices decline. There’s more things to sell. Not a lot of people want to buy them, and so the people with stuff to sell keep lowering and lowering and lowering and lowering their prices until they can entice people to actually buy it. That’s how a crash actually happens, whether it’s in the housing market, stock market, whatever. That can happen in the housing market in two ways, right? People no longer want to buy housing or people are forced to sell raising inventory, and right now, neither of those things are happening.
Yes, demand is down from where it was during the pandemic. That is absolutely true, but it is relatively balanced with supply. That is why we are not seeing runaway inventory. It is also why we haven’t seen prices decline because demand and supply are relative, and when demand dropped after the pandemic, so did supply, and that has kept them in balance. The other thing I should mention is that demand is actually up year over year from where it was in 2025 to where we sit here in 2026. It’s actually up as measured by the Mortgage Bankers Association measurement of mortgage purchase applications. That is actually up, so the idea that demand is fleeing the market is not true. The other part that can happen is that there’s a flood of inventory. This is what a lot of doomers YouTube crash bros are saying is that there is going to be a flood of inventory.
Now, inventory is up from the pandemic, but remember, the pandemic had artificially low levels of inventory, so seeing it come back to normal levels is what we would expect, and actually we’re seeing growth in inventory start to moderate the year over year growth rates for inventory. New listings are starting to come down, which again are signs of a correction and not a crash. If there was going to be forced selling, if people were going to be forced to sell, we would know. We would see it in delinquencies, we would see it in foreclosures. Right? Now, I reported on it the other day, they’re actually lower month over month. They’re up from the pandemic absolutely when they’re artificially low, but they were still below pre pandemic levels where they were in 2019 and no one was talking about a crisis in 2019 with foreclosures or inventory, right, and we’re below that level.
Secondly, credit quality is excellent. Right now, if you look at the average borrower profile, who owns a mortgage in the United States, pretty darn qualified for the mortgage that they have. Another thing is that there’s very few adjustable rate mortgages. They’re very unpopular these days, and so the people who are paying their mortgages are likely to keep paying their mortgages. Now, if unemployment goes to 10%, that might change, but right now it’s at 4%, so I think we’re kind of a long way away from that happening. So I just want to reiterate, if you see news about this, people saying this about the 18 year cycle, yeah, they might be, I think coincidentally, right, that the year that nominal home prices pick is 18 years after 2008, the market can correct. It’s what I expect that will happen, but will it be worse than 2008? No.
I think that is highly, highly unlikely, and if something changes where that becomes more likely, I promise, I will tell you. So takeaways from this. Number one, housing, a hundred percent works in cycles. You should pay attention for them. Again, kind of the whole idea behind the show, you need to know how to handle different parts of the cycle. Also, check out Jay Scott’s book. Really good reading on that if you’re interested, but that’s where the lessons of the 18 year cycle I think end the idea that something as complex as the US housing market can be predicted on some precise timeline using data from our agrarian society of the 18 hundreds. I just don’t buy it. The evidence doesn’t back it up. In fact, anytime someone says anything economic or business related can work on some fixed precise timeline, don’t believe it. When knows anything in your life, economic or not worked out in that sort of clockwork fashion, I’m sorry, but the world is just more complicated than that. The only way to know what’s going on is to stay informed and continuously update your understanding of the markets. That’s what we do on the show. We don’t rely on data from the 18 hundreds. We stay up to date and keep ourselves as informed as possible. Thank you so much for watching this episode of On the Market. If you like this episode, give us a share, a like, or even better, leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. Thanks so much for listening. We’ll see you next time.

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Do you want to own not one rental property, or two, but an entire real estate portfolio that gives you financial freedom? Then, you’re going to need help as you grow. Thankfully, there are many tools and systems that can make running your rentals much easier. With the right resources, today’s guest built a very profitable real estate business in just TWO years!

Welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie podcast! Jamie Banks has already quit her job and replaced her entire salary with the cash flow from her rental properties. But she’s not done yet. Now, one of Jamie’s goals is to work as little as possible, and she’s chipping away at it by leveraging artificial intelligence (AI), automating mundane processes, and creating standard operating procedures (SOPs) her team can follow.

Whether you’re stabilizing a single property or looking to scale your portfolio, this episode is jam-packed with systems, tools, and tips you need to reach your real estate investing goals much faster. Jamie shares the biggest pain points for new investors, the quickest way to create procedures from scratch, and the software she can’t live without!

Ashley:
Owning rental properties doesn’t get easier. As you grow, it gets more complicated. And if you’re running your real estate business through texts, emails, and spreadsheets, that things are going to start slipping through the cracks.

Tony:
Our guest today built a cash flowing real estate portfolio in just two years, but what most investors don’t see is the systems behind that portfolio. And today she’s breaking down how she digitized her project management so she could run multiple rentals across multiple markets without losing control. So get ready to take notes because this episode is packed with tactical takeaways you can actually use today.

Ashley:
This is the Real Estate Rookie podcast, and I am Ashley Kehr.

Tony:
And I’m Tony j Robinson. And with that, let’s give a big warm welcome back to the show to Jamie Banks. Jamie, thanks for joining us again.

Jamie:
Thanks so much for having me.

Tony:
So Jamie, you previously joined us on episode 5 42 where we got to deep dive your story, your origin story as a real estate investor. But one of the things you mentioned during that episode was how you built systems around your portfolio and we thought it was such a cool little tidbit that we wanted to bring you back. So we’re excited to today go into not the portfolio itself, but the tools and the systems and the processes that have allowed you to scale this portfolio.

Ashley:
So Jamie, let’s start with someone that maybe has one or two rentals. They’re listening right now. What are the most common ways you see them accidentally creating chaos in their business?

Jamie:
I would say having more than one way of doing something. So I remember one thing that was a big irritation for me was having more than one way of paying vendors. It was one property you have for short and midterm rentals, cleaners, handyman, and women vendors, maybe a runner, someone who stops by and I remember just taking whatever way they’ll take payments. And so I’m creating PayPals, Venmos all of this versus having one system that I was using. And then kind of same thing with communication, text, email, WhatsApp, turn messages, lists can kind of go on and on. And I think it’s just so chaotic then when you want to recall the information or remember how or who to pay when you have so many different sources you’re looking at for that information.

Tony:
That’s a great point and just multiple ways of doing it. And it’s so funny you mentioned payments because that was one of the first big pain points for us where we were scaling our short-term rental portfolio. We were paying a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons and we were still using Venmo and I don’t know if you guys know this, but there were caps on how much money you can send through Venmo on a weekly basis. And we kept hitting these caps, so we’d use all of the money for my wife’s account until she hit her cap. Then my account, then our partner’s account, it’s like sometimes we would spend so much money that all of our accounts would be caps and then we’re trying to figure out how to do that. So side note, I know we’re going to talk about project management software today. One of my strong recommendations for you guys is to get the right business banking platform. I use Relay Ash, you use Base Lane, but having a tool that’s actually built to support small business and real estate investors in particular can save a lot of that headache. So not to go too far down a tangent, but you just said that and it brought back a lot of dark days of sifting through Venmo transactions, trying to figure out who got paid for what reason.

Jamie:
Yeah, it seems like some PTSD, but I definitely get it. It’s so hard, especially then with bookkeeping tax season, it can kind of just not having the right system again with just one property can really create a headache for all different reasons.

Ashley:
So how do you help someone tell the difference between normal growing pains and I need a better systems now?

Jamie:
That’s a great question. I think really identifying what is the problem. I can give a perfect example. I remember I was talking to someone who was like, my virtual assistants are the problem. I’m like all of them, every single one. And they were from different places and I’m like, five people can’t be the problem. Let’s talk more about it. And it really was all of them were complaining that there wasn’t one place for them to look. So if they’re like, oh, who’s the cleaner for 1, 2, 3 Main Street? And it was someone doing arbitrage scale, they have over a hundred properties, it would take them 30 minutes to find the vendor. And this is an emergency situation. And so I think just digging in of what is the problem or coming in from what a system fixes, because usually you can, whether it’s a communication issue, whether it’s I can’t find things issue, whether it’s not clear on the process issue, it usually can come from having a better system, having a standard operating procedure or SOP. I feel like that’s usually the key of most issues where growing pain is just going to be that there’s maybe things are happening too fast, but again, with the right system, I think a lot of the growing pains can go away.

Ashley:
And Jamie, can you explain what an SOP is and what it stands for?

Jamie:
Yeah, so SOP stands for a standard operating procedure and just a fancy, I was fancy way of saying just like what is your procedure? So before we did this interview, I have a new sales rep I created A SOP for that was literally four sentences, one sentence per bullet because that’s all I have for right now. But it’s a new role and as it develops, that list will kind of go on. So if it’s handling a maintenance request, you get the maintenance request, you delegate the maintenance request, then you pay the vendor. Obviously very, very simple way of putting it, but really that SOP is going to be the base of how something you want it to happen.

Ashley:
Are you using any software to create these SOPs? I know I’ve heard of Tango or Loom to help you create these things instead of just doing it from scratch.

Jamie:
Great question. So I use kind of a combination of Loom Scribe and Chat GBT. And so it really, I won’t go too much into the type of SOP, but with Scribe or Loom, those are going to be better for a simple process. For example, how I pay my vendors, I can record my screen and scribe just for people who don’t know, creates a document based on I click in the base, I use Base Lane team, you click in the base lane, you go to this tab, this tab, it would create an SOP for you. But with Loom I would say it’s more explaining it’s going to be a video. This is great. I have mostly Filipino virtual assistants on my team and that’s great because they’re very visual. However, both scribe and Loom, we would download into whatever method like CSV or docs they would download in, we put it in the chat GBT to put it into my ideal formatting.
And then I would say sometimes you’ll have a longer process like maintenance requests. You can’t really use Loom or Scribe for one of those because a maintenance request is there’s a lot of different steps and what ifs and if this happens then do this. And so that’s going to be something that I probably would start in chat gbt because guess what? Every real estate has dealt with a maintenance request and it can give you a basic of this is what happened. And then as you’re going through a maintenance request kind of live, which I always recommend making the SOPs when you’re doing it because if not, it just kind of creates duplicate work and then you might forget things. And so as you’re updating it, then you actually update it to your exact process.

Tony:
Jamie, I couldn’t agree more with that last point you made of making the SOPs as you are doing it. And I found that to be one of the best ways, and we will talk a little bit later about how it’s actually go about building these out, but I can’t agree more with that statement. But I want to go back because I know that we maybe all can deal with a little bit of pain in our business, especially as we’re scaling. There are certain things we’re just like, yeah, it sucks a little bit, but hey, I can manage it. I guess when you were personally earlier in your portfolio, what were some of those things that were painful but manageable at first that later became maybe bigger pain points or bigger bottlenecks for you?

Jamie:
I would say not logging just key information on the property and what I would say the key information was the furniture. I have all midterm rentals, so just understanding what I bought, how old it was, because then when it’s time to replace it or you’re submitting an Airbnb request because someone broke something, you need to know exactly what that is. I would say another thing is just the key information would be, well, my clothes on the property and we have our inspection reports, we’ve gotten all this information on the property and then also your insurance agent, what insurance do I have on the property? The coverages I would say of the first year, I’m like, I don’t need to log all this. And then comes tax time and then you’re like, oh shoot, what is going on? Or you’re at the point where you want to get another quote and then you have to go through your email to find what was my insurance information so that I can get quotes.
And so things like that that I would say that happen during the acquisitions process or even things that might just happen once a year come that second year, you’re going to be really upset at yourself for not at least having it saved in one area or one source of record for that information. I think tax time is usually when investors really realize how not disorganized they’re, because then everything’s in different places. So information like that is definitely something that’s key to, although it may seem redundant and a lot of work, but just something for me that was like, okay, I need a little bit better systems just to make tax time a little easier.

Ashley:
If an investor is ignoring these problems and just continues on, and I personally have done this when I first started out and waited a long time before I put my systems in, processes in place. But if they just keep managing everything manual, what starts to happen if they ignore these problems?

Jamie:
I think two key things, one is burnout. There will become a time where you’re like, you can’t do it. I’ve seen people are like, I just had to extend my taxes. I don’t care how much I owe because I just cannot do it too much. You don’t want to get to that point because that’s not just burnout, that’s also missed opportunity slash money because you’re paying or even opportunities where now I can’t take on additional properties or if you’re co-hosting or providing services, you can’t take on additional clients because you’ve reached your max. And so if you’re at the point where burnout is something that just is taking you and then also saying no to things, not because you don’t want to because your business can’t handle it, that’s a key sign as well.

Tony:
And Jamie, I think that being a real estate investor forces you to wear a lot of different hats and someone could be really, really good at door knocking and finding good deals and talking with sellers and doing all the work to acquire the deal, but they could also be very, very poor at what goes into being able to manage that asset and actually see it reach its full potential based on whatever underwriting you initially did. And I get that systems isn’t the sexiest word, but it is such a necessity for anyone that wants to scale beyond one or two properties because as you add more chances are you’re probably doing this while you’re working a busy day job while you’ve got maybe family commitments or community commitments or whatever it may be. You’re not doing this in a vacuum. So you’ve got to be able to make sure that you’re maximizing your impact while minimizing the amount of time it takes for you to actually manage these properties. And it starts with what we’re talking about here

Ashley:
After the break. Jamie breaks down how to replace chaos with clarity without getting lost in tech or over building systems as a real estate investor. The last thing I want to do or really have time for is to play accountant, banker and debt collector. But that’s what I was doing every weekend, flipping between a bunch of apps, bank statements and receipts, trying to sort it all by property and figure out who’s laid on rent. But then I found a base lane and it takes all of that off my plate and it’s actually BiggerPockets official banking platform that automatically sorts my transactions, matches receipts, and collects rent for every property. My tax prep is done and my weekends are mine again. Plus I’m saving a ton of money on banking fees and apps I don’t need anymore. Get a $100 bonus when you sign up [email protected] slash bp BiggerPockets pro members even get a free upgrade to Base Lane Smart that’s packed with advanced automations and features to save you even more time. We’ll be right back. Okay, so now we’re back and we’ve talked about why systems matter. Let’s get to very practical. How does someone with one or two rentals actually start building them? So Jamie, someone listening and maybe they feel overwhelmed right now thinking that we have been talking about them and this is how they feel. Where should they even start? What’s the first system every investor should build?

Jamie:
I would say a system that’s your centralized operating system, which really is just going to like a fancy way of saying your system of record. This could be a Google sheet or an Excel file where you have a list of all your tenants, all your properties, all of your insurance or utilities. I just think that having something centralized, it’s going to help and then you’re going to build off of it when you’re buying, when you’re applying for loans, there’s a lot of different times when property information is needed and even if you have two properties, instead of having to memorize the address and making sure that the zip code is right, just having a Google sheet of what that information could really help out in the long run.

Ashley:
That is one thing that I created and I love, I call it my master entity list and capital letters and it’s like starred in my Google drive to the top thing to easily access. And I have the LLC name, the EIN number, I have each point of contact, so who’s the accountant, who’s the bookkeeper, who’s anything that anybody would do for that LLC, the va. Then I have which properties it owns. I have any mortgages that are in any of those properties, who the lender is the bank accounts. I have the routing number, I have the account number. I can’t even tell you how many times I go to have to look up the routing or account number to do a quick pay an invoice through email or things like that that this has made it so simple. But I think just I agree, starting out with some kind of spreadsheet or document that all of that basic information in one place for you has been super, super helpful for me. As just a starting point too,

Tony:
I’m going to echo what both of you just said. I call ours isn’t the, what did you call it? The entity master, command center, whatever it’s called. Ours. I like the man center. Ours is just called the property tracker, but it has a lot of those same details and I just pull mine up. So we have the date that we purchased it. We have our purchase price, what we originally bought it for, the escrow company that we used, our settlement statement, our closing disclosures, the entity name, our short-term rental permits, our parcel numbers, what day the trash gets taken out, because that’s big for short-term rentals. I like to have in the bank details where we have the last four of the debit card associated with that property, the door lock type. We have different door locks on different properties. So just all those details that you feel like you find yourself trying to reference, getting them into one location, especially as you start to build the team around yourself. One of the best things that I think we’ve ever done now, Jamie, one of the reasons that I think we all kind of bonded over this is because we’re also using the same tool, I believe for most of this. So I use Monday Ash, what are you using?

Ashley:
Yeah, I’m using Monday.

Tony:
Monday And Jamie,

Ashley:
Yeah, monday.com.

Tony:
Monday.com as well, right. So we are all monday.com evangelists. So Monday, if you’re listening to this, you got to make sure you sponsor some episodes in the future because we love the product. Jamie, sir, are you building out your, I guess lemme maybe frame the question this way. How do you decide what lives inside of a tool like monday.com? There are other options out there like Airtable notion, there’s lots of other popular options out there.

Ashley:
Google

Tony:
Sheets. Google Sheets even. And I guess that’s what I was going to ask. How do you decide what lives inside of just a basic Google sheet versus what makes more sense inside of your actual property management software or management tool?

Jamie:
That’s a great question and I think it really comes to the intended purpose, right? So let’s say you’re someone who has one property, your purpose is just having the information somewhere. I’ll tell people all the time, don’t use Monday, use a Google sheet. If you have one property, your might not buy another one for a while. Google Sheet’s probably going to be your best bet. But the great thing about Monday, and I’m a Monday nerd, so there’s work management, which is probably when you think of Monday, when you Google Monday, that’s what comes up. But there’s the Monday CRM, just know I’m particularly talking about the Monday CRM because it has different capabilities. With the Monday CRM, it really takes things to the next level of like, okay, so I have a property in New Orleans, I have to get termite pest control. If you don’t get it exactly 364 days before, it goes from 300 to 3000, so I need to pay the three, that’s a scam.
But anyway, I’m not missing that date. And then also I want to do it after the fiscal year for tax reasons, whatever, I’m not missing that date. If it was just in Google Sheet, I would still have to put a reminder somewhere of that date or I’m not going to remember. I know now because it’s like PTD, it’s January 7th, but I don’t want to have to remember that date all the time. But in Monday I can have it listed, have it, mine’s called just like my property management board, and then I have a reminder of, I think it’s 14 days before that due date. I’m getting a reminder and then I build off of that. Now I have a virtual assistant who handles property management, so he’s getting that information in an email and is told to pay it. And so then monday.com or any system like Asana notion, there’s similar systems that will do those actual automations for you.
And I think another thing is with this Monday CRM especially, it could take some of those tasks away. So a lot of times things we have to do as investors or email someone or a checkout is happening, a maintenance request is happening, someone needs to stop by the property for X, Y, ZI, for me, wanted to use a system that can then take care of sending that email. Because if I’m sending the same email to the same person, even if it’s quarterly, bi-annually, if it’s annually or if it’s every three years, I want to be able to send those things automated. And that’s from maintenance requests. I raise private money for my deals. There’s not really a system when you raise private money of making sure that those lenders are getting the information and are getting paid. And so really monday.com for me has really helped me take that next step. And for people who actually want to be able to do some of those things, those automations and things, that’s where a system like Monday could help versus a Google sheet or another spreadsheet.

Ashley:
Jamie, I want to clarify a little bit here. Are you using monday.com as your property management software then too? Or are you using anything else outside of that?

Jamie:
No, I use monday.com literally for everything. I say acquisitions when a new, I pretty much buy things on market. My virtual assistant scrubbing Zillow based on my criteria, entering the data into my money.com board. So the data you would get from Zillow, the price they want, not the price I’m going to pay, but square footage, bedroom bathrooms, because I’m buying a certain type of property in the same market. All my calculations are done by Monday. I know I can get a thousand per bedroom. So Monday’s doing those calculations and spitting out my projected cashflow. And then if it meets my criteria, I’m being alerted to take the next step and basically do some more due diligence to make a offer. Or if it doesn’t meet my criteria, I don’t see it. And so from that to property management, the only thing Monday can’t do is rent collection. So I use baseline for rent collection. It can’t collect any type of payment. And then even from asset management. So I have an equity partner on a deal and she’s getting basically automated reports so I don’t have to email her every quarter to tell her what’s happening.

Ashley:
Yeah, that’s interesting. I never thought of it as a property management tool, but that would definitely work. I use for my short-term rentals, I use Hospitable, then I use Turbo Tenant for my long-term rentals. And then my monday.com board is more of just tracking or if I’m doing a rehab to track the rehab project, different things like that. Tony, how are you using Monday and then what other software are you using to compliment it to manage your properties?

Tony:
Yeah, more the way that you described Ashley, it is more of a repository of information, but I’m still using my property management software hospitable for my short-term rentals, price laps or pricing, all these different things. But we are using it similarly to how Jamie described where we wanted to automate some of the work associated with these things. I’ll give you guys a real example. We had a property where we missed the deadline to renew our short-term rental permit. And when that happens, it is the worst thing because not only do you effectively have to close your short-term rental until you can then go through the entire approval process all over again, the price is also double for a new application versus a renewal. So even though we’re the same exact donors, same exact property, nothing changed. They’re treating it as a new application because the original one expired.
So instead of it being, I dunno, I think it’s like $400 for a renewal, it was close to a thousand dollars for a new application. So we’re doubling the cost there. So anyway, it was a big deal. We had to shut the property down, had to pay double the fees, wanted to make sure that didn’t happen again. So now inside of Monday we already have the short-term rental permit on there. Now we just added another column that says permit expiration date. And we have now reminders that go out 90 days before that expiration date, 60 days before that expiration date, 30 days before, 21 days before and seven days before. So now literally there should be no chance of us ever missing a permit renewal. And it’s because all of that’s automated through Monday. So that is one of the big reasons that we like it because there is that functionality there. So it’s a bit of a blend ash, we’re using it both in the way that you and Jamie are using it. So Jamie, you talked about this a little bit, right? You talked about acquisitions, you talked about the actual property management, but how do you personally break your rental business into its different buckets or categories and how does that kind of correlate with how you’re using your project management software?

Jamie:
Yeah, so I break it down into, I call ‘EM department. So acquisitions, property management is an asset management, also dispositions if I’m selling anything. And then I have a CEO kind of department where it’s basically things that I have to do. And so I think with that it helps because back in with monday.com, but also I’m sure with other tools is you can build your automations based on those things. So if it’s an acquisitions tool, we know time is money. We know that with acquisitions that goes a lot faster. So our automations for due date is a lot sooner of something comes in, we need to do it now where maybe asset management, that’s really going to be the things that are done. Think of your owner’s reports, think of your high level, how is my portfolio performing? Could also be looked at as portfolio management.
That’s really for me and my partners internally, that’s not something that needs to be done right now. So we can kind of set due dates apart from that. And then I think too of what I want to delegate, I know I mentioned a little bit, I use virtual assistants and my goal is to not have to work. And I have a consulting business with Monday com and I hope investors with their systems. And so I want to focus on that. I don’t want to be focused on my midterm rentals day in and day out, especially with midterm. And my average length of stay is about five to six months. We don’t have a lot day to day. And so the things we do have are going to be your, when someone moves in, all of those, the messages they’re getting, the moving instructions, the confirmation, reminding them of trash day and beloved trash day or wifi, things that we might already tell them, but we know they’re going to have a reminder in. And then also the things for the move out instructions, some properties in an HOA that they have to turn in their parking badge and things like that where there’s things that are happening at the beginning and end of that process. So automating those has been really helpful. And then just having the virtual assistant in the middle. So anything that I can delegate, I want to have categorized or put into money.com because then someone else can do it. And then also I would say things that are happening, and reoccurringly could be monthly or even annually.

Ashley:
Can you maybe walk us through how you turn something messy into something beautiful like a turnover or maintenance issue into a repeatable process that someone could do over and over again?

Jamie:
Sure. So I would say let’s do my maintenance process. So my strategy, and I’m talking about in the last episode is more working with businesses for midterms. So while my properties are on Airbnb and different sites are mostly working direct, and the problem with direct is direct could be email, it could be text, it could be different things. And so one thing I do, the only way that we take maintenance requests is by someone filling out the maintenance form. If you text us, if you email us, if we tell you, however we’re not, we’re going to say fill out the form. What I’ve done is took it a step further. I have a QR code that’s actually on the refrigerator of each property that takes them to the form so that I’m sure you’re eating every day. So you can see that the maintenance request form is there, and I just tell all my tenants that just ensures that we get it timely.
And then also it asks all the questions that we’re going to ask anyway. And so it’s a short form, maybe five questions in monday.com, you can have triggers. So if someone says it’s water rate, water is very bad and can be very detrimental to a rental property. And so there’s additional questions, where is the water? Can you include a video? How deep is the water if it’s a standing water issue? And so then they fill out the maintenance request form, a few things happen. One, they automatically get an email that says, hi so and so. And then based on what they select, there’s an automations on what this will say, but essentially says, Hey, so and so thank you for your maintenance request. If it’s urgent, it’s going to say, we got the request, we’re on it. We’re going to be in touch as soon as possible.
If it’s wifi, we remind them our business hours are nine to five, we’ll get in touch with you when we can. It’s something more professional than that. But even I jinx, I have four properties, but I still want to run a professional management company. And so even them knowing and just getting the confirmation that, oh, hey, they got it. I know they got it, I know they’re handling it, that’s helpful. And then on the backend, it’s being logged into the system. Everyone on the real estate team, which is me, and then also one of my virtual assistants is being notified of that request. And then my virtual assistant is taking it forward. We have another, they’re called boards of the property vendors because I’m in three different markets. And then, so based on the category I’ve selected, my virtual assistant would choose the appropriate vendor.
Then once they’re selected, they’re notified automatically via email as well of the request. And then from there, there is a lot of back and forth, not a lot, but there could be back and forth depending on the maintenance request. And just what my so p says is that it has to be logged. So even if I’m dealing right now with a washing machine that knock on wood, hopefully done, but there’s been maybe three or four different conversations with the tenants with my handyman of this install. And so every time something happens, it’s being logged in Monday, like talk to handyman, wrong washer was bought or talk to tenant, wash machine still isn’t working. All of those things were logging so that when it comes down to five months later, and maybe there’s an issue, maybe there’s not. Or maybe unfortunately, sometimes there’s, especially with Airbnb, like a tenant could come back and say, Hey, this wasn’t done.
Or the Airbnb usually coincide with the guest. And so even having that log that I could print out, that I could download the PDF screenshot, whatever I want to do to show, okay, this is exactly what was done and this is when it was done. And so that means with the maintenance request, we’re not going through email, text, whatever other WhatsApp and Airbnb, let’s say, although there might be a different method of communicating, everything is logged in Monday. And so I know my VA knows if someone else is hired on the team, they know exactly what happened with that request. And then a good thing, when I say with asset management, what I do of putting my CEO hat on is quarterly I’ll review the maintenance request. So with this washing machine issue I’m having, I noticed that there was three repairs. There shouldn’t be three repairs on the wash machine. That’s wasting money. We can just replace it. Replace. And so that’s something that my retro assistant isn’t going to say, Hey, this is the third one, because I’m not dealing with it day to day. But as I saw it and I was doing my review, like asset management, I realized, okay, I’ve spent X amount of money on this repair that’s been through repairs. It’s time to replace this.

Ashley:
Jamie, I guess, why haven’t you decided to switch to a property management software that has a lot of this already integrated into it? So for the maintenance issue, like switching to a property management software that has the troubleshooting built into it, the AI chat that’s talking with the tenant and then having all that communication in one place instead of having to screenshot it from text and then uploading it into Monday. What do you see as the benefit of using Monday compared to a property management software?

Jamie:
I would say of using a, because I have used, and I used to co-host, so I used a software and if you used to have short-term rentals as well, there’s no channel management. So that’s a drawback that monday.com has. But for me, when I had a property management software, I also needed something for the information because I think a property management software will do some of the things, but you can’t keep, I have three lock boxes for all properties. One that’s visible, two that are completely hidden because I’ve had too many lockouts, I couldn’t put all the different locations of those attached to my property file. As well as I have different types of business. I have a business, my portfolio, and then also I hire, I’ve hired a few virtual assistants this year. I can also have my hiring process on Monday. And so for me, when I was looking at different tools, I realized, one, as I want to grow a business that I can delegate and then also sell one day.
I want to be able to have a tool that’s the source of record. And definitely Monday can have the drawbacks with payment. You can’t collect payment. But then also Don have to set up payment once. So it’s okay with going outside of the platform to set it up once. But I think for me, just having a system that I can train that my virtual assistants and other team members can really learn, and then also just having multiple hats of my business departments of my business in the same place helps me. And then also too, I think with there’s different integrations and Monday can integrate with QuickBooks, Monday can integrate with different things that I’m also using for my bookkeeper, for other outside vendors. And so I like that. And I think I always tell people to try out multiple to see, because for me, I, I felt like doing property management half in the software and then half on Monday or even Google Sheets because I had to keep the information where someone maybe who has short-term rentals, it might be better suited for them to have a property management software or channel management software like owner Sify, et cetera, and then just use Monday as a backup.
But for me it was just personal preference of really wanted everything in one place. And also, I’m a data nerd, so I like analytics. And so I can track a lot of the data by my average rent rate or raising private money, I can use those analytics to then show my private lenders like, oh, this is how my property’s performing. Loan me all your money. So a few different reasons for that.

Tony:
Well, Jamie, we talked about why building out these systems and processes are important. We covered how to actually start going about building those out. And I actually want me and Ash to share how we’ve started building out those in our own business as well. But then more importantly, once you’ve built it, how do you make sure you stick with it? So we’ll cover those right after. A quick word from today’s show sponsors. Alright, we are back here with Jamie Bakes and we just discussed why creating systems and processes are so important as you build your real estate portfolio. And Jamie shared some really strong tactics on how to start building those out. But Ash, I want us to kind of open up, give a peek behind the scenes for our own business as well. If you remember, if you can, what was maybe one of the first things you built an SOP around and what was your process for actually putting it together? Because I think a lot of folks, again, can understand the importance, but it’s the how where they actually get stuck. So I know I’m sending you in the time machine right now, but if you remember, what was that first one?

Ashley:
Bookkeeping

Tony:
Time was also bookkeeping. That’s funny.

Ashley:
It was an SOP of enter the website for the bank, get the bank login, log in, go to bank statements. And then I was using QuickBooks login to QuickBooks, go to this entity, go in, go to reconcile. And it was like going through the monthly bank reconciliation from start to finish of what you would need to do. And that was my first one. It was just literally a Google Doc step by step by step by step. Yeah,

Tony:
Mine was almost exactly the same thing. We were using ESSA when we first started and when we first launched our portfolio, I was doing all the bookkeeping and that was one of the first things I wanted to get rid of. So we hired a virtual assistant, and as part of her training, I just recorded myself going into essa, categorizing every single one of the transactions, attaching the receipts, and that was the first SOP that I created. But now obviously we’ve got lots and lots and lots of SOPs. We primarily use a combination of Loom and Google Docs for hours. But Jamie, I’m curious for you, how do you decide what actually needs an SOP versus something that can just remain as a one-off? Where is that tipping point on the scale where it actually makes sense to turn it into an SOP?

Jamie:
I would say I myself, two questions. One is someone going to have to do it again? I know I like to spend my time thinking about growing my business, not thinking about a process that I had to do a year ago, and now I have to remember. And then also, will it be delegated? A lot of times I’ll do something once and I’ll decide, okay, this is something that I’m then going to delegate. And so just taking that extra 15 to 30 minutes, it’s not always fast to create the SOP, but taking that extra time to create it then will save me time later. And so I feel like if it’s something that you’re not going to do for a while or you’re still maybe deciding between softwares probably doesn’t make sense to systemize it, to put it into an SOP, but yes, you’re going to be doing it on a recurring basis or delegate it. That’s kind of like my trigger is an SOP is needed.

Tony:
I would agree. Anything that I find myself repeatedly doing that I don’t want to do, that’s usually the trigger for me. Okay, I need to put this into an SLP. Right now we’re actually dealing with this in our business where we switched over to new payroll and scheduling software for our hotel, and I was the one that spearheaded setting this up. So I’m still the one with a lot of this tribal knowledge and it’s been working great. But one of the things that I haven’t offloaded yet was the actual publishing of the schedule. So literally, I’ve been getting texts from my team like, Hey, Tony, schedule’s not out yet. Schedule’s not out yet. So I’m like, I just need to record the SOP so I can then give this to someone else to go knock out. But there is that pain of like, man, it just takes longer when you have to record it and voice through everything that you’re doing. But now, this is the fourth week in the road that I’ve done this, and had I just done it the first time, I wouldn’t have to be doing it anymore. So I get that it’s painful, but we’ve got to be able to kind of move through that pain so that we can delegate it to someone else.

Ashley:
It’s also so awkward talking through it, especially the first goal times you do it. Okay, now I’m going to go into this. I think the first time I ever did that, I stopped the recording and start it over three or four times, and eventually it was just like, okay, it doesn’t matter, just record it.

Jamie:
Yeah, I think with Loom it’s really cool. They have Loom ai, so it takes out your As and ums and filler words and stuff because then I’ll forget, I’m recording and I’m sitting there, I’m like, what am I doing? Oh, I forgot. So yeah, it’s definitely something that can be awkward, but I feel like now I don’t even know the number of SOPs that I have, but I realized that it’s easier to have it because then I can, even if I have three or four SOPs that are a few lines long, I can throw that into AI chat GBT to kind of boost up to make sound a little bit better, or to even combine into one process. So instead of like, oh, how to list on Airbnb versus Furnish Finder, you could have one that take two kind of incomplete ones, put it together so AI could create one for you. So AI definitely specifically, excuse me, chat GBT for me helps. And then also on chat gbt, you can actually upload your SOPs. I think I have the business chat g bt, but you upload your SOPs as your company knowledge. So if my VA’s asking about what’s the checkout time at X, Y, Z property, it pulls my SOPs, it links to monday.com, it links to everything, and we’ll tell ’em the checkout time. So that’s another reason for having it is because then you can also train the AI tools on how to work smarter for you.

Ashley:
I remember we had a guest on who talked about this where they took everything, every document they had for their company, and they fed it to ai. And so it was like their company directory, so anybody on their team could ask a question. I just remember my brain exploded after they said that. Like, oh my God, that’s such a good idea still.

Jamie:
Yeah, now it integrates. Well, now it’s even easier because it integrates with Google Drive. So assuming you have all your SOPs on Google Docs, it just takes a few minutes. But that’s been so helpful. Or it’s like, oh, that’s why I’ve created all these SOPs and taking so many hours. They’re right at the end of the tunnel.

Tony:
I believe it also connects to money.com. Now, if I’m not mistaken, chat GT does. So if you’re saving those things in any of those places, you can go there. So Jamie, obviously we talked about why it’s important. We talked about how to do it, but I think for a lot of folks, they’re worried about perfection as they start to build out that first or those first few SOPs. So how do you balance just getting it out versus it actually being good enough to be useful? How do you strike that balance? Because in my mind, it’s an iterative process and what your SOP looks like today is probably different than what it might look like a year from now, but you got to start somewhere. So I guess how do you draw that line of like, okay, it’s good enough. Lemme just hit ship. Let me hit publish on this one.

Jamie:
Yeah, I think for me, I look at it as the first time you do it, maintenance requests, but that’s at the big SOP. But if you’re sitting down and you’re doing the request and you’re putting every single step and let’s say three to four different sections, you have number one A, then you have the Roman numerals, right? You’re never going to finish that. SOP, that SOP is going to be a work in progress for probably the rest of your life. And so what I like to do is like, okay, if I’m starting the SOP today, that’s the one I started today. I have four or five steps. I’m not going into that next section. If you’re on Google Doc, I’m just doing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. I’m saying go to this website. Number two, submit the details, whatever process. And I would say of just put enough so that if you weren’t feeling well or you were on vacation the next time it came up, someone could read through it and at least know where to go.
Or at least I’d rather someone come to me with one question, not 20 questions. So just starting somewhere is important and I think, or even something sounds I’ll do, because again, I love SOPs and systems. It’s all just time block. Okay, I have 30 minutes to get this SOP to the correct place. Because if you’re a perfectionist or you’re like, oh, well what if this happens or this, it’s just like it’s better to have something than nothing because remember, the purpose of the so P is to help you that next time. If you’re doing it, you don’t have to start from scratch or if you’re delegating it, they have a base to start. And so you’re not going to start perfect. I used to work for a large corporation. I worked for Capital One, and that’s where I learned system and processes. And so obviously my systems and processes aren’t as great is Capital One that’s been around for, I don’t even know how many years, that’s 40,000 employees.
That’s my level of perfection. My system suck compared to them. But just knowing that I have the steps that I need to get through and just know of, for me, I’ll create an SOP. Well, guess what? I’m not going to be doing it. My virtual assistant is So if my virtual assistant can do A to B without asking me, it’s a success. I don’t care what the so P says, right? It’s a success. And so realize too, if you’re doing it for you to remember and then you’re like, oh, it’s not perfect, well guess what? Oh, you’re going to see it. Or if it’s for your VA or another team member, just making sure that it at least has the, its intended target of getting through the step. It doesn’t have to be perfect. Again, I don’t know. I use open phone. They changed their name to, I don’t even remember. So technically half my SOPs are wrong because it says open phone. That’s okay. Next time that we use the SOP where we need that system system, we’ll just replace it because you’re always going to be updating your SOPs. It’s going to be a living, breathing document.

Ashley:
I’ve also done SOPs with people’s names, as in then if the position changes, it’s not their name anymore, but I find and replace on Google Docs. Very, very useful in situations like that. But I guess, Jamie, before we wrap up here, when is the time that you fix a system? When do you realize that it’s breaking and you actually need to go in and change or adjust or create a new system for something?

Jamie:
Honestly, if you’re spending more time thinking about how to do the process than doing the process, it’s broken. So like a maintenance request, I shouldn’t be thinking about what to do. I should be calling, emailing, doing what I have to do to get the maintenance issue solved. Or even this one key thing, underwriting, right? If we’re analyzing deals or you haven’t looked at a deal in a while and you’re trying to remember how you analyze or remember your underwriting assumptions, and remember, you could just have the SOP because you should be spending your time going from point A to point B and securing that deal, analyzing a deal, writing in your offer, that’s where you’re actually going to make your money in that deal not and trying to remember how you analyze the deal.

Ashley:
Well, Jamie, thank you so much for coming on today and giving us a mini masterclass and SOPs and project management. You mentioned monday.com, there’s Asana. There’s a ton of other programs that you can check out like Jamie had said a bunch of times, like Find what works for you to be able to do this. So Jamie, where can people reach out to you and find out more information?

Jamie:
I’m most active on Instagram. It’s under my name, Jamie Banks and in Real Estate.

Ashley:
Well, thank you guys so much for listening today. If you enjoy the show, make sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and make sure you are subscribed to Real Estate Rookie on YouTube. I’m Ashley. He’s Tony, and we’ll see you guys on the next episode.

 

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President Donald Trump hasn’t completely prohibited Wall Street’s institutionalized investors from buying single-family homes in America, but he’s made it very hard for them to do so. In the process, he has left a clear path for build-to-rent investors—many of whom have scaled back their single-family house purchases recently—to expand their already burgeoning business model.

According to the White House Fact Sheet on the proposed Executive Order, which still needs to be approved by Congress, federal agencies, including the Treasury, HUD, the VA, and USDA, are being told to stop insuring, guaranteeing, or securitizing purchases of single-family homes by large investors where legally allowed.

The order also calls on regulators such as the DOJ and FTC to prioritize antitrust enforcement against coordinated vacancy or pricing strategies in local single-family rental markets, and to identify institutional investors’ involvement in federal housing assistance programs by demanding full disclosure of ownership.

The White House’s whiteout on single-family home purchases by Wall Street takes from one hand and gives with the other, allowing housing titans such as Invitation Homes, Blackstone, and Pretium Partners to continue their build-to-rent business, as it does not affect the number of single-family houses available to the public.

The Loophole

The government ruling still allows single-family homes to be purchased by institutional investors in all-cash deals and through non-agency funding, which could create workarounds for REITs raising capital through initial public offerings. There is also nothing to prevent REITs from securing private financing for their single-family projects.

“Trump’s executive order lays out the framework for how an institutional investor ban would operate, but key questions remain. Most importantly, the order does not define what qualifies as an ‘institutional investor,’ or exactly how the policy would be enforced,” said Realtor.com senior economist Jake Krimmel in a release about the news.

Inventory Is Unlikely to Be Affected

Given that institutional investors only own approximately 1% of the single-family rental market, it is unlikely that the government’s new ruling will unleash a flood of single-family inventory.

Krimmel added:

“Even under perfect enforcement, the policy would add little inventory overall. Because it only curbs future institutional demand, any effect would show up as homes sitting on the market slightly longer, rather than a surge of new supply. At best, this would amount to an inventory trickle, and likely only in select Sunbelt metros where inventory has already risen sharply due to market forces. In the supply-constrained Northeast, corporate investor activity is minimal, so the policy would have little to no impact on inventory.”

Build-to-Rent’s Free Reign

Build-to-rent has recently been the preferred investment vehicle for institutional investors due to its centralized operation, ability to build at scale, and lack of competition from single-family buyers or political overseers.

The latest governmental order only amplifies these reasons. The main players, firms such as Invitation Homes, American Homes 4 Rent, and Pretium, delivered over 70,000 units in 2023 and 321,000 homes since 2012, according to John Burns Research and Consulting, as shown in the Wall Street Journal. Major homebuilders such as D.R. Horton and Lennar saw many of their new homes directly swallowed up by the build-to-rent behemoths.

“There’s going to have to be a change in the model,” Trevor Koskovich, Northmarq’s head of investment sales, told the Journal. “This is great for the build-to-rent segment.”

How Small Investors Will Be Affected by the Built-to-Rent Boom

The influx of new build-to-rent communities could change the complexion of the suburbs, with many would-be single-family homeowners still priced out of the market due to the cost of housing in good school districts looking to this housing stock. 

However, BTR communities’ impact on single-family rentals and smaller investors remains up for debate. Reuters noted that Wall Street money will undoubtedly pour into BTR communities, but it’s unclear if that will affect MLS inventory, which smaller investors usually transact with. Considering that over 90% of the market is owned by mom-and-pop investors with fewer than 10 properties in their portfolio, it’s unlikely BTR communities will have a profound effect on the single-family rental market.

Also, there is a discrepancy between single-family rental prices and BTRs. According to a 2024 analysis by Parcl Labs, BTRs were overall considerably more expensive. However, Beekin, a data and analytics company, put the rental premium at around 10%-15% toward BTRs.

However, as BiggerPockets noted in October, there are distinct advantages for investors who want to be hands-off and outsource all aspects of management and leasing to invest in BTR communities. Beekin, which leverages its data through LeaseMax, a revenue management software used by BTR communities and therefore has a vested interest, suggests that these reasons are strong enough to sway tenants to move into BTRs rather than small investor-owned SFR units. 

The next question is: Will enough BTR communities be built to affect the SFR market?

According to Forbes, using CoStar data, BTR communities could rise to about 15% of single-family starts over the next five years as renters seek more space but remain priced out of homeownership. Whether that is enough to tip the scales and take from the SFR market remains to be seen.

Markets With the Largest Built-to-Rent Communities

Phoenix, Dallas, and Atlanta undoubtedly have the largest BTR communities, with secondary markets such as Wilmington, Delaware; Des Moines, Iowa; and Chattanooga, Tennessee also seeing a heavy construction pipeline, according to Point2Homes/Yardi’s metro-level database of completed single-family build-to-rent deliveries from 2020 to 2024 and active pipeline counts as of April 2025, as examined by Lending One.

Markets with ample land and strong employment opportunities are ideal for BTR communities. These generally tend to favor Sunbelt states, but the Midwest and some West Coast cities are definitely within its scope, and smaller investors need to stay aware and possibly decide at some point whether it’s worth ceding the labor-intensive nature of being a small investor to throwing their lot in with the BTR heavy hitters. There are pros and cons to this, as we pointed out.

Final Thoughts

Although Donald Trump’s executive order is unlikely to have an immediate or large-scale effect on the single-family housing market, for everyday investors and flippers, eliminating institutional and corporate competition could prove significant.

John Walker, a Realtor and flipper in Pittsburgh, told BiggerPockets that he couldn’t wait for hedge funds and other corporations that have been buying up real estate to leave the city, adding:

“It’s just impossible for smaller investors like me to compete. A couple of weeks ago, for example, I was bidding on a property for a flip and came up against a hedge fund. They put an escalation clause in their offer, which meant that whatever the highest offer was, they would better it by $1,000, so there was no way I could ever win that bidding war. It’s causing house prices to increase and making it impossible for most flippers to turn a profit, or for buyers to afford. So yeah, I’ll be glad to see the back of them.”

Rather than moving the affordability needle on a massive scale, the White House’s ban on institutional investors buying single-family houses might be felt the most in the trenches, with everyday investors trying to find the fine margins of profitability. In a tight housing market, every small win is a reason to celebrate.



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All information summarized in this article comes from the official HUD report titled: Annual Report to Congress Regarding the Financial Status of the Federal Housing Administration Mutual Mortgage Insurance Fund (FY 2025), published by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development and the Federal Housing Administration. The full report is publicly available on HUD’s website here.

The holidays are over. The decorations are down. And you’re replaying that one conversation with the family member who confidently announced that housing policy is “a mess” and “nothing is being done to help buyers.”

You knew the Federal Housing Administration (FHA) had actually made a long list of changes this term. But at the moment, between pie and politics, the details escaped you.

So let’s fix that.

Because buried inside FHA’s FY 2025 Annual Report is a policy agenda focused on making homebuying more affordable, sustainable, and functional—not just for borrowers, but for the entire housing ecosystem real estate investors operate within.

First Things First: FHA Checked the Foundation Before Moving the Furniture

Before changing anything, FHA did something that matters deeply to investors: It checked the balance sheet.

The Mutual Mortgage Insurance (MMI) Fund—the insurance pool that backs FHA loans—finished FY 2025 with a capital ratio of 11.47%, more than five times the statutory minimum. Even more important, a substantial portion of that capital is held in cash and cash-equivalent assets, giving FHA real flexibility during economic stress.

Why this matters for homebuyers and investors is simple: You cannot responsibly lower costs or expand access unless the insurance fund is strong enough to absorb risk. FHA’s own stress tests show that even under extreme economic scenarios, replays of the Great Recession without the benefit of the last decade’s home price growth, the fund remained well above required minimums.

That financial strength set the stage for everything else that followed.

Fixing the “Too Many Second Chances” Problem

During the COVID pandemic years, FHA expanded loss mitigation options aggressively. The goal was to keep people in their homes—and it worked short-term

But the FY 2025 report shows a hard truth: Nearly 60% of borrowers who received certain COVID-era home retention options re-defaulted within one year.

That’s not sustainable for borrowers or the insurance fund. So in April 2025, FHA rewrote the rules. Through Mortgagee Letter 2025-12, FHA:

  • Ended COVID-era loss mitigation programs.
  • Ended FHA-HAMP.
  • Required borrowers to prove payment ability through a Trial Payment Plan.
  • Limited permanent home retention options to once every 24 months.

The intent wasn’t punishment. It was success. FHA made it clear that repeated short-term fixes were creating churn, not stability.

For buyers, this means a system more focused on long-term affordability, not temporary relief that collapses later. For investors, it means clearer resolution timelines and fewer loans stuck in endless modification cycles.

Reducing Borrower Costs by Cutting Unnecessary Red Tape

One of the most overlooked parts of FHA’s FY 2025 agenda is how much bureaucratic friction was removed. Throughout the year, FHA rescinded more than a dozen sub-regulatory requirements that increased transaction costs without providing meaningful risk protection. These included:

  • Outdated appraisal protocols that added time and expense.
  • Staffing rules that limited lender flexibility.
  • Redundant consumer information forms.
  • Floodplain elevation standards that significantly increased construction costs without proportional benefit.
  • Mandatory inspections in disaster areas that slowed recovery.

Each of these changes may sound small on its own. Together, they directly affect:

  • Closing timelines.
  • Construction feasibility.
  • Origination costs.
  • Lender participation.

For homebuyers, that translates to lower friction and fewer surprise costs. For investors, it supports housing supply, transaction velocity, and post-disaster recovery, all of which influence market dynamics.

Making Default Engagement Less Costly and More Effective

FHA also modernized how servicers engage with borrowers in default. Through updated guidance, FHA:

  • Simplified borrower contact requirements.
  • Removed overly rigid interview rules.
  • Clarified how new loss mitigation options transition.
  • Updated disaster forbearance policies.

The goal was to reduce operational costs while preserving borrower protections. This matters because servicing costs ultimately flow through the system, affecting everything from lender pricing to resolution outcomes. Efficiency here benefits everyone.

Opening the Door to Faster, Fairer Foreclosure Sales

Another meaningful change came in how FHA handles post-foreclosure sales.

In FY 2025, FHA reformed the Claims Without Conveyance of Title (CWCOT) and HUD REO sales processes by shortening or eliminating exclusive listing periods that delayed sales and increased property deterioration. This doesn’t remove buyer protections, but it does restore competitive bidding sooner, which historically leads to:

  • Higher recovery values.
  • Lower holding costs.
  • Less neighborhood blight.

For real estate investors, this is one of the most practical changes in the report. It affects how quickly properties reenter the market and how efficiently capital can be redeployed.

Protecting Buyers During Natural Disasters—Without Breaking the System

FY 2025 included multiple natural disasters, and FHA responded with targeted, temporary relief:

  • Automatic foreclosure moratoriums
  • Inspection and repair flexibilities
  • Expanded repair loan eligibility
  • Waived early payment default reviews in disaster zones

These measures were designed to buy time, not create permanent distortions. FHA paired relief with clear expiration points and policy guardrails—balancing compassion with financial discipline.

Watching New Risks Before They Become Old Problems

Finally, FHA acknowledged emerging risks that affect affordability, including Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) lending. Through a formal Request for Information, FHA began evaluating how these obligations, which are often invisible to credit scoring, could distort debt-to-income ratio calculations.

That kind of forward-looking oversight matters. It shows FHA is not just reacting to past crises, but monitoring behavioral changes that could affect borrower stability.

The Bigger Picture for Real Estate Investors

This term’s FHA policy agenda focused on:

  • Lowering unnecessary costs.
  • Strengthening borrower success.
  • Improving system efficiency.
  • Preserving insurance fund strength.

For real estate investors, the takeaway isn’t about predicting booms or busts. It’s about understanding how policy shapes timing, friction, and resolution, often more than headlines do.

And the next time someone at a holiday table says “Nothing’s being done to help buyers,” you’ll have the receipts and the story to say otherwise.

Disclosure: Equity Trust Company is a directed custodian and does not provide tax, legal, or investment advice. Any information communicated by Equity Trust Company is for educational purposes only and should not be construed as tax, legal, or investment advice. Whenever making an investment decision, please consult with your tax attorney or financial professional.

BiggerPockets/PassivePockets is not affiliated in any way with Equity Trust Company or any of Equity’s family of companies. Opinions or ideas expressed by BiggerPockets/PassivePockets are not necessarily those of Equity Trust Company, nor do they reflect their views or endorsement. The information provided by Equity Trust Company is for educational purposes only. Equity Trust Company, and their affiliates, representatives, and officers do not provide legal or tax advice. Investing involves risk, including possible loss of principal. Please consult your tax and legal advisors before making investment decisions. Equity Trust and BiggerPockets/PassivePockets may receive referral fees for any services performed as a result of being referred opportunities.



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Is a $100,000 rental property ever worth it? We see so many markets across the country that sport cheap rental properties. But, are you really just buying a problem that will never truly cash flow, or do these dirt-cheap deal-finders know something that we don’t?

We’re back, as Dave and Henry answer your questions from the BiggerPockets Forums. First, we’re talking about cheap rental properties—$100K or less—and when Henry will and won’t buy them. How much money should you put down on a rental property? One investor has a different idea than the standard 20%-25% down, and Dave agrees—if you want more cash flow, less stress, and a more stable portfolio.

Is flipping…moral? Concerned homebuyers say house flippers are taking inventory off the market, and Henry…thinks they have a point (to some extent).

Finally, after years of working with hard money lenders, Henry shares (more like yells) some choice words at any lenders listening on how to make the industry suck a little less.

Click here to listen on Apple Podcasts.

Listen to the Podcast Here

Read the Transcript Here

Help Us Out!

Help us reach new listeners on iTunes by leaving us a rating and review! It takes just 30 seconds and instructions can be found here. Thanks! We really appreciate it!

In This Episode We Cover:

  • $100K rental properties: Are they too cheap to be a cash-flowing investment?
  • How much money to put down on a rental property to cash flow in 2026
  • Interest-only loans: When Dave and Henry say it’s totally worth it
  • Henry’s rant against hard money lenders and why investors must be careful
  • The morally-right way to flip a house (without hurting homebuyers)
  • And So Much More!

Links from the Show

Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email [email protected].



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Dave:
If the housing market feels sort of hard to read right now, you are not alone. It kind of is. Some metros are loosening up, others are tightening, sellers are testing prices, and buyers are testing patients. That’s why we’re here on, on the market to help you make sense of it all. Hey everyone, I am Dave Meyer. Welcome to On the Market. I’m here with Henry, Kathy, and James to talk about the latest data and headlines from the housing market. James, how’s it going? Congratulations, Seahawks making it to the NFC finals.

James:
Oh yeah. My voice is just recovering from the last game.

Dave:
. That was a great game. Kathy, how are you?

Kathy:
I am doing great. We have a big live event tomorrow, so I’m gonna have a busy weekend and taught my grandson how to ski. Oh, that’s fun. So that was super fun.

Dave:
Nice. Henry, thank you for, uh, taking time away from Barefoot Country Club to join us today. I know you were, uh, at Pebble Beach just now.

Henry:
I was, I was, I was playing Pebble at Barefoot Country Club, so yes, you’re you’re welcome that I, I stepped away , but don’t worry, I’ll be back in the country club here shortly.

Dave:
All right. Well we do need to get into our headlines ’cause there’s a lot going on and I’m actually gonna start today ’cause I have good news and I wanna share it with everyone. This is an article from Redfin and the headline is, monthly housing costs start the year down 5%. The biggest decline in over a year. The median US monthly housing payment dip to 24 13. Still very high in historical perspective, don’t get me wrong, but it’s got a bottom out somewhere, right? It’s good to see things starting to move in a positive direction. That means 5.5% from a year ago. Now. I just wanna make clear what I’m, I’m not saying that prices, housing prices fell 5.5%, but the combination of lower mortgage rates, they’re about 1% lower than they were a year ago. Market generally is flat in some markets it’s going down and wages have gone up.
And when you combine those things, housing affordability has gotten better six months in a row and we’re starting to see that improvement increase. And I’m excited about that. I gotta be honest, I know different people have different feelings about the market right now, but I generally think that any improvement to a housing affordability is a good thing for investors. It’s a good thing for home buyers, it’s a good thing for our country in general. And so I’m pretty stoked about this and I think it’s gonna bring a little bit of life into the housing market. Maybe not a ton, but I still think that there’s a reason to be optimistic that this is going to continue. Uh, are you guys seeing any, you know, improvements or change in attitude or sentiment about affordability where you’re operating?

Kathy:
I, I just wanna say I, I hope it lasts. That’s, that’s the thing. It feels like it might just be a pocket of time because when you look at the GDP now, the Atlanta Fed, that kind of gauges the eco, you know, where the GDP is right now. It’s really strong like in the fives. And if that’s the case then you know, you would probably see rates go up again.

Dave:
That’s true.

Kathy:
So yeah, it’s a pocket, it’s a window inti of time. If you’re trying to get in, this might be a really good opportunity right now ’cause we don’t know what the future holds.

James:
It’s always that missing the window where people are like, I’m waiting it out, waiting it out, waiting it out, and then they rush in because they feel like they start to miss it. I mean, Dave, you’re in Seattle now. There’s not a lot of homes for sale at all.

Dave:
Dude, in the neighborhoods I was looking at, I was like four or five properties since New Year’s have been listed. It’s crazy.

James:
There’s nothing I’m like, every time I go comp a house, we’re listing 10 houses in the next couple weeks as we held some back listed five this week we have 10 more coming up and this is gonna be like my test of what’s going on with this spring market, lack of inventory, do we see some sort of chase. But I mean we did put one on market two days ago and we had it listed for 8 25 for 60 days. Took it off market in December, just re-listed full price, cash offer.

Dave:
Wow, okay. Oh my gosh. Wow. That’s pretty good.

James:
I would say it’s a, that would be on the higher end of this neighborhood. It’s in CTAC, Washington, which is gonna be not like the really expensive part, but I mean 8, 835 grand in ctac expensive.

Kathy:
So that’s still a lot of money.

James:
Yeah. Yeah. So we’ll see. That’s crazy. I I, I’m, this is like the test quarter. If it doesn’t go hot, then we’re in for a long flat real estate market is how I look at it. Yeah. Are you guys seeing low inventory? ’cause it is like everywhere. I’m checking all sorts of neighborhoods and I’m like, where are the houses? This is like, why isn’t anybody talking about this? And I don’t think the data has quite came out yet. I’m gonna be excited for the end of the month, but there’s nothing in a lot of neighborhoods where I’m like, well if someone wants to buy a houses, it’s gonna be mine because there’s nothing else here.

Dave:
I was just doing some research and new listings are at the lowest point they’ve been in two years.
So
It’s like, it’s just kind of a weird situation where sellers don’t wanna sell still. They’re thinking that there’s no buyers, which is not really true. Mortgage demand is actually up like pretty significantly year over year, but just less people wanna sell into this market right now. The lock in effect still is there and I think buyers are being more picky. They’re negotiating harder, which they should. But like just, I think sellers just aren’t interested right now. And so there are some markets where I think there’s good opportunity because affordability is improving, but even if affordability is improving and no one’s listening to their homes for sale, I don’t think it’s gonna really create some great buying conditions, unfortunately.

James:
No, I do. I think over the next two to three weeks we’ll see how much actual inventory was being sat on and people wanted to wait through that, that kind of December months. And that’s, that’s what I’m also curious about. ’cause I did was talking to, um, a couple of my photographers and they definitely have shot some houses, so I’ll be curious to see what comes on.

Dave:
One thing that seems to be happening is like affordability isn’t proving, but do people know that? I feel like , no one recognizes that and it’s not enough to like get people off the sidelines. And so we probably need several more months of this and people to really start to see their monthly payments go down more than a hundred bucks a month to change their mindset about whether or not this is a good time to buy. I’m hopeful we’ll continue on this track, but no one knows where mortgage rates are going. So this could, as Kathy said, be a little pocket right now where you can get a slightly lower rate.

Henry:
Yeah.

Dave:
And in some markets, sounds like in your market, Henry, at least there’s some inventory to buy.

Henry:
Yeah, now I, it’s down from where it was like two months ago, two or three months ago. I mean, there was a lot of inventory, but a lot of that has, has started to get snapped up. But I know from investors we’ve got more inventory coming on the market ’cause a lot of investors pulled their listings in the winter and are waiting the 30 days so they can relist it and show zero days on market again. That’s a good point.

Dave:
All right, well overall I see this is a good thing. I am hoping affordability just continues to improve. That would be great. But I think right now it’s not really impacting behavior yet, but we’ll see how that unfolds over the next couple of weeks. Relevant to this, whether things are gonna change and if this is just a pocket like Kathy was alluding to, Henry, I think you’ve got a, a story that can inform that.

Henry:
Yeah, I do. I have an article from Reuters. The article talks about why the mortgage backed securities purchase that Trump talked about, in which I brought as an article on our last show, has not had the effect it’s looking to yet on lowering housing costs. So as we know, president Trump instructed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government backed mortgage giants to buy up 200 billion in mortgage backed securities. And the goal for that was to push yields down and thereby reduce mortgage rates and make housing more affordable because essentially mortgage, uh, payments would be lower. And what the data is showing so far is that it has not significantly lowered housing costs or mortgage rates yet. Nope. For example, like a 30 year fixed rate mortgage moved from 6.15 down to 6.09. So it’s a small change and it’s good. That helped

Dave:
Mm-hmm . Yeah.

Henry:
But it’s not enough to truly move the needle and get people to dive back in because now all of a sudden their mortgage payments are more affordable. But what they’re saying is the real cause for why this hasn’t moved the needle is because there isn’t enough inventory for people to buy. It’s really shining a light on the fact that yes, we had more homes on the market a few months ago when the market was air quotes down, but now that rates have come down a little bit and there is a little more affordability, there still isn’t enough out there for people to jump in the market and buy something.

Kathy:
You just, you can’t empty the ocean by with a few buckets. You know, it’s just, cannot manipulate the markets with a few billion dollars. It’s, it’s a, it’s not enough. So, you know, for those who maybe don’t understand the, the idea it’s mortgage rates are set by bond buyers and if there’s no bond buyers, then rates tend to go up. If there’s bond buyers they go down. So if the fed or president is gonna find a way to buy some bonds, it’s so temporary, you know? Mm-hmm . And it’s just not gonna make a huge impact. It’s the global economy that matters.

Dave:
Yep.

Kathy:
And really when it comes to bond, you’re talking about people buying US bonds, basically letting America have more debt. They have to have tremendous faith in the US and you know, there’s been a lot of, a lot going on that may be shaky for other countries of what we’re doing here. So it’s just, it’s not enough to make a difference.

Dave:
I read a couple of articles about this and I think it’s true. It, the analysis was that of buying mortgage backed securities would lower mortgage rates by about a quarter of a point. So 25 basis points. And we did see that that was like pretty accurate in the days after this was announced. And that impact and benefit is very likely still there and has made a positive impact on mortgage rates. The problem is there are many other things that are going on

Kathy:
Yeah.

Dave:
That are pushing mortgage rates back up. You guys mentioned geopolitical uncertainty. That’s absolutely happening. If you look at the dollar index, it’s going down, the dollar is weakening that you would expect these things to happen. I’m not gonna get into the Japanese bond market, but there are things going on there and you would be surprised how much that impacts what’s going on in the United States. But it does. And so I think the thing is mortgage rates did go back up, but I would say without the bond purchasing, they’d probably be a quarter of a point even higher than they were today. So like they’ve gone back up to six and a quarter without that bond buying, they’d probably be six and a half. But I do think we’ve probably seen all the benefit we will see from this. And this is why I’ve said I think there’s a high chance we do real quantitative easing this year. Yeah. Because I think the president has been very clear that he wants lower mortgage rates and Oh yeah. As we’ve been saying, it’s the only way we’re really getting it. I don’t necessarily think that is a good decision.

Henry:
Yeah.

Dave:
Quantitative easing is buying more mortgage backed securities or treasuries.

Kathy:
Yeah.

Dave:
But by doing it, by printing money, it would work, it would drive down mortgage rates. It it would, but I just, it’s not good. I, I really personally think if the market needs to correct, the market needs to correct. Like you can’t just keep kicking the can down the road and we are seeing affordability improve, it’s gonna be slow, but like that’s probably what the market needs. It’s probably the best for the long term for the housing market.

James:
Don’t you feel like it was starting to have like a little bit of a, a positive effect and then all of a sudden the Greenland comes out? The fighting with Powell, it’s just like, I think, I don’t know if that’s gonna get any better. How much did the, the ball market freaked out when we announced tariffs on the EU over Greenland, but didn’t rates show up like almost a quarter a point right after that announcement?

Dave:
Yeah, for sure. When these things happen, like Kathy said, the bond market is depending on the stability of the United States and anytime there’s threats to geopolitical order, people move their money into gold, for example, which is now at about $5,000 an ounce and you see the dollar weakening. And so yeah, I think there’s just so much uncertainty right now that’s very unlikely to get better. And as Kathy said, the economy, the GDP is going to keep going up. So we’re probably not gonna see a recession that pushes more money into bonds and brings down rates. So I think we’re stuck in the low sixes. Like I just think that’s, yeah, low to mid sixes is just where we’re gonna be,

Henry:
But that’s a good place to be. That’s where it was in 2017.

Dave:
Yeah. Mentally I think getting below six would be really nice for the market, even if it doesn’t have like that big of an actual impact. I think when people see that five, they get excited.

James:
That’s fair.

Dave:
I get excited .

James:
Yeah. Just get a five in front of it, I’m happy.

Dave:
All right. Well we followed our good news about housing affordability improvement with mediocre news that mortgage rates are probably not moving down anytime soon. Uh, I think, you know, they’re gonna be volatile. I think that is kind of the lesson here is like they were 5.99 for a day. If you see a movement of a eighth of a point or a quarter of a point and you’re in the market, lock it in. ’cause it’s probably gonna go back up. I think this idea that we’re like on this linear trajectory where things are gonna keep going down, a steady pace in the mortgage market is just not true. It’s gonna be up and down. And so if you see an opportunity, take it because you’re probably not gonna regret it. Um, at least in the short term. And if they do, if we’re wrong and they do QE and we’re going have 5% mortgage rates refinance, it’s fine.

Kathy:
Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m gonna be, I’m gonna be a Dave Meyer right now and say, I think, I think rates are gonna go up and, and, and stay up. I hate saying it, I don’t like it. I think Trump is gonna do everything he can to have that not happen, but he only has so much power and ability to do that. Uh, so at least we think.

Dave:
All right. So that’s what’s going on with housing affordability and mortgage rates. Two super important topics for investors. So hopefully that’s helpful to you. We got two more stories for you though about 401k and a new executive order that might really impact investors in real estate. We’ll get to those stories right after this quick break. Welcome back to On the Market. I am here with Henry, Kathy and James going over our headlines. We talked about improving housing, affordability, great news, some mediocre news, fine news, flat news about the mortgage rate. I don’t know what you want to call it. Let’s move on to your headline. James, what do you got for us?

James:
Uh, you know, actually I feel like the theme of this show is affordability.

Dave:
Mm-hmm

James:
. And like Kathy said, you know, they’re coming up with all different ways to try to get homeowner costs down. The Trump administration’s been talking about tapping your 401k as a down payment for your purchase on your home and you won’t have to pay all the penalties.

Dave:
Mm-hmm

James:
. And so there’s a lot of chatter about this and I really want actually everyone’s opinion on this. ’cause at first I heard this, I was like, yeah, this could be a good idea. And then I started to be like, is it a good idea? Like I’m kind of torn on it. Right? The article’s labeled, obviously they don’t think it’s a good idea. It’s, it’s, uh, from housing wire tapping a 401k for home ownership is risky. Business experts say

Dave:
Mm-hmm

James:
. And a lot of what this article talked about was they think that the stock market would outperform and have more benefit for someone to keep it in their retirement than to take it and put it towards their house. Also, to point out that there’s only 40% of Americans are on track for retirement right now and that keeps falling behind. That’s

Dave:
Terrible. Yeah.

James:
Yeah. That’s according to Vanguard and that’s really recent December, 2025. And I think that’s just been falling and I think that’s not gonna continue to improve. I think as people are getting tighter and tighter and their bills are getting more and more like everything costs more today, right? Like

Dave:
Mm-hmm .

James:
It’s just eating up your ability to save. And the idea is to pull out your 401k to be able to afford a house. But this article argues that stocks historically have outperformed housing 7% to three to 5% annual growth. And in 2026 home prices growth forecast is only at 2.2. So they’re really pushing on this article that on paper it’s gonna show that the stocks are gonna outperform, but they’re also not thinking about a lot of different things like principal buydown paying down your loans and also rent increase and where you’re located. You know, I think it does depend on where you are.

Dave:
Yeah.

James:
But I felt like this thing was heavily, uh, written by people that wanted you to keep your money in the market.

Kathy:
Think about all the financial planners who were pissed.

Dave:
Yeah, exactly. That’s a great point, Kathy. Like this is directly going after financial planners business. Yeah. They do not want this to happen. Um, or all the, the funds that manage massive 4 0 1 Ks and stuff, like they’re, they would be hurt by this. I think there’s truth to both sides of this. It’s the way I see this debate that everyone in real estate has about is your primary residence in investment or not? And the answer is, it totally depends. If you use your 401k to go out and buy a dream home that is, you know, there’s no meat on the bone, you’re not equity, you’re not forcing any appreciation. How does that compare to the stock market? I think that’s up for debate. Like I’ve actually done the math myself. And it really depends, like James said, on location, it’s not clear cut any one way, but if you’re gonna go out and use a 401k to house hack or to buy a duplex or to to do a live and flip, like, then it’s a totally different question.
And so I think as an investor you would see this really differently. And I think I’d have to learn the details of this, but if someone was like, Hey, I wanna go house hack, should I tap my 401k? I think there’s a lot of scenarios where I would say yes to that. That’s probably a good idea. I personally am skeptical about the house, the, the stock market returns over the next like 10 years or so. But if someone was gonna say, Hey, I’m not gonna do all of that work, I’m just gonna go buy an expensive house in my neighborhood, should I do that? Or a 401k? It’s, that I think is risky because I do think people over es the average person overestimates how much wealth a like a primary residence brings. And that’s why I think people like Robert Kiyosaki and Grant Cardone say, don’t buy your primary residence because I do think people overestimate, usually it just keeps up with inflation. And so if you’re gonna do that, it’s probably not the best move. But if you’re gonna do a strategy like we talk about here, then I think it makes sense.

Kathy:
Yeah. It, this, this article drives me crazy and I could just go on my soap soap box here. .

Dave:
Please do do

Kathy:
It. Okay. So in this it says home prices grow around three to 5% annually by comparison, the s and p has been at um, nearly 7% returns. Okay, well let’s just assume that people who are taking money out of their 401k are not paying all cash. Yeah. Let’s assume they’re either gonna do a 3% down loan or a 20% down loan. Let’s say it’s 20%. Now if, if that house is making 3% annually in growth, you gotta times it by five. So you’re making 15%, not 3%. It’s just, I hate it when people compare appreciation of housing with what you made in the stock market because you’re not leveraging your stocks generally you’re leveraging the house. So you’ve only put a small amount down, but you get the 2%, 3% on the whole house. So it’s just not good. Math makes me mad and I agree with you. Like if you are going to buy your primary, maybe you’re gonna do what I do, put an A DU on it. Mm-hmm . Rent that a DU out or house hack, like you said, rent rooms out so that now your return return is even higher. Or maybe someone else is paying your mortgage entirely. You could keep investing in the stock market. You could take all that money and go back and put it back in your 401k. No one’s saying you’re not, not investing anymore. So anyway, drives me crazy. It’s just not accurate.

Henry:
Maybe I have an unpopular opinion about this, but I just feel like it’s your frick fracking money. So yeah. You should be able to access it when you want to anyway. Now I understand that corporations match and so like maybe you don’t get access to the money you didn’t put in, but it’s your frick frack money. So if you want access to it, I think you should have it. I don’t know, maybe that’s an unpopular opinion about this,

Kathy:
But I agree.

Henry:
I don’t think there’s a problem with it.

James:
I think people should be able to do what they want with it. I, but what I really loved about this article and how it’s written, this is why I picked this one. They gave a case study. If you had a hundred thousand dollars at the age 35, after 30 years, 474,000 will be lost in growth by pulling it and putting it in your house. The amount of our population at 35 years old that has a hundred thousand dollars in their retirement account is according to Yahoo Finance, less than 5%. Like it’s not a whole lot of people. And so like the benefit to this is the people that don’t have a ton, if you’re buying in some of these more affordable areas, like Henry, your average home in your area when you’re selling for a flips, like what, two 50 to three 50, right? If you’re doing a FHA 3.5% down loan, that’s something that’s actually achievable for people that can have a very big impact that they can get not out-priced out of the market. And so leaving 10 grand in the stock market versus being able to buy down and get your, your mortgage below a rent cost, it’s kind of a no-brainer. Like give people access a lock command. They have affordability. I just, I didn’t like this article ’cause I just thought it was very, very heavily skewed and it was completely negative in all the wrong ways.

Henry:
I feel like Dave wants to fight with me and I kind of want you to why, like I think the, the question with the article is, should people be able to access it and use it without penalty? And I think the answer to that is yes.

Kathy:
Yes.

Henry:
Now I agree with you that it’s not smart to access it and go buy a single family home that isn’t an investment. I don’t think that’s a smart decision, but people are make dumb decisions with their finances all the time. Like,

Dave:
I gotta think about it more. I I don’t have a strong opinion about it, I’m not gonna argue with you. I’m just like the 401k was like created to help people retire. Like whether it’s effective or not is a different question or if there’s a better system. But the whole idea was to create a tax incentive to people to save money that they use later. So changing that and saying you can use it whenever you want, it’s just like different like why are we giving people why tax incentive. I see what you’re saying. Yeah. Like why do they get a tax benefit to just go buy a house? Like I just want it to be fair to people and not just that, that I agree. People who that I agree chose not to put in 4 0 1 Ks or people who have had to keep their money in their 401k aren’t being disadvantaged by this,

James:
It, it could be a good concept. They gotta work through some details though. Like, I mean, should they do a loan to your own 401k so you pay interest when you do sell that property? I mean they’re just, it needs to be thought through but at least they’re coming up with all sorts of ideas to try to get home ownership going and affordable.

Dave:
Yep. Well I did a whole show on this channel about this, that a lot of the Trump administration policies are all demand side policies and all of them are meant to induce people to get into the market and buy, which I’m not against. I think that that can make sense, but if none of them to date have address supply issues, like I know that they’ve said like, oh we’re gonna open up federal lands. I personally don’t think that’s going to really help very much. So my whole opinion about this stuff in general is like if we’re gonna get these demand side support, great, that could be helpful in the short term. But they have to be paired with supply side solutions. And I don’t think we’ve seen many supply side solutions. So my hope is that we’ll start to hear some of those ideas in the future. Alright, well I don’t even know what we’re arguing about, but we have, we do have to take one more quick break. We’ll be right back. , welcome back to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer, I’m here with Kathy, James and Henry arguing about, well we don’t even know what, but we have more news about potential Trump policies. But actually we have a real, uh, an executive order, right? We’ve gone from an idea to actual policy. Tell us about it. Kathy, kind

Kathy:
Of, this is from Time Magazine. President Donald Trump has signed an executive order that his administration contends will help lower housing prices and stoke affordability by placing restrictions on big investor home purchases. Um, so there’s all kinds of articles that follow up saying is it really going to lower prices? Uh, Vox came out with an article saying actually it could raise your rent. Uh, the surprising truth about corporate investing and investment housing, that’s a really good article. But the bottom line is that the executive order isn’t really, uh, very clear yet. It’s simply directing agencies to figure it out. . So the order directs agencies to promote home sales to individual breyers and restrict federal programs from enabling big investors to acquire single family homes. So, you know, trying to get federal money to not be approving ensuring guaranteeing funding, facilitating securitizing these sales. And so nothing’s really been done besides, we want you to look into this and do something. But to me that actually is a pretty fantastic solution of, uh, you know, maybe, maybe federal money isn’t going to subsidize, uh, the institutional investors, um, and give them loans and so forth.

Dave:
I think that’s great.

Kathy:
Yeah. But then you get these other articles saying, yeah, but you don’t under, like, you gotta look at it like it’s providing supply in many cases if it’s bill to rent. But I think it sounds like there would be a carve out for build to rent. So as long as you’re bringing on new supply, that’s okay, but we’re just not gonna fund you taking single family homes away from other, from from regular people.

Dave:
Yeah. I I think there’s stuff in here to like, but there’s a lot that we don’t know.

Kathy:
Yeah,

Dave:
I agree. Like I don’t think programs like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that are designed to promote home ownership, that they should be subsidizing loans for private equity companies to go buy single family homes and rent them back to people. Like those companies have access to plenty of other capital. Yeah, they’ve got capital. They can get loans from plenty of other places. The government does not need to be subsidizing them because of that though. If this is the extent of it, I don’t think it’s gonna really stop them because they have access to capital from so many other places. Yeah. It’s called private equity. They have tons of equity that they could go out and buy stuff with.

Kathy:
Yeah.

Dave:
And I’m sure there are banks that only exist to lend to private equity companies. Like I’m sure they’re still getting loans probably at lower rates than you and I get. Uh, so I don’t think that will matter. Um, so I, I don’t really think this is gonna have that big of an effect the way that it’s written right now. I do agree with you Kathy. I think build to rent is good. I did see that carve out and I think that’s good because you don’t want to decentivize anyone from building housing right now.

James:
Kathy, you work with a lot of builders.

Dave:
Mm-hmm

James:
. I can say I feel like all the builders I know including us, we aren’t making very much money right now.

Kathy:
Oh no. No. In fact, we might be losing a lot of money right now except for our build to rent community.

James:
The land base is high. The costs are high. Rates are high. The demand for some of the products down rates are coming down and it’s just been, you know, it’s that that is a common message I hear from very experienced builders. It’s like, dude, this is tough right now and there needs to be something done. ’cause either there, there’s two things that are gonna happen. We’re gonna get no more supply ’cause people just aren’t gonna build it ’cause we’re not gonna sign up to lose money.

Kathy:
Yeah.

James:
Or you know, sellers that have had their property for a long time that are banking on this for their retirement, they gotta come down on price, right? Mm-hmm . And so we’re at this like weird lock-in, like they wanna talk about the lock-in effect. This is the lock-in effect dirt and builders. It’s like no one can budge right now.

Henry:
Mm-hmm . Yeah.

James:
And so there definitely needs to be something. But I totally agree with Dave. Like you can’t give it to the people that have all the money. There needs to be a really critical conversation to go on here and it’s just, everyone just talks about it. But this is not like an overnight fix that that’d be, they gotta think this through because it’s there is gonna, I mean, permits down, I know in Seattle, like town home permits are at all time lows getting issued. Really?

Kathy:
Oh yeah. Oh, it’s brutal.

James:
Like we don’t see it now ’cause there’s a lot of town homes that aren’t selling, but there’s gonna be this gap where there’s nothing and it’s gonna be a major problem.

Kathy:
Yeah. So subsidized builders maybe subsidize, um, a, a first time home buyer if you want and they pay it back later. I don’t know. But subsidizing, um, wall Street, I, I’m not a fan.

Henry:
No. Yeah, I think it’s a step in the right direction. I don’t know that it solves the problem, but I agree with you guys about building and I think there’s even more issues with building, especially trying to bring new supply into areas where you’re adding density because cities are running into issues with sewer capacity and they’re halting building in lots of, lots of parts of the

James:
Country.

Henry:
Really? Yes. The

James:
Poop’s got nowhere to go. Yeah.

Henry:
There’s too much poop. . Yeah. Too much guys.

Kathy:
Too much poop guys. I was gonna say that earlier. It’s like talking about bringing on supply sounds so simple, but you’ve got water issues, you’ve got traffic issues, air pollution, uh, you know, there’s a lot to bring in on more supply than just building a house. And, and that’s why it does take so long. It’s like, where’s the water coming from? You’ve got Arizona where they don’t have it. You know how getting rights or in, in Salt Lake City, you know, it’s like sure people wanna move there, but there’s caps on, on the resources that people need to be able to build housing.

James:
You know, I always laugh the cities want more units, so they’re upzoning everywhere. Right. Like in Seattle now you can take a 5,000 square foot lot and you can cut it in a four parcels. It’s coming right up the It’s crazy. Yeah. Not coning four parcels. The fees that the city collect on this, I mean they’re charging I think anywhere between like, you know, 18 and $22 per square foot as a permit fee.

Dave:
Yeah. Wow.

James:
It’s an up zone fee. And so that’s not helping the cause I can tell you that much, but it’s like they’re charging more, the money doesn’t get where it needs to go. And so it’s just like this constant battle that goes nowhere.

Dave:
It’s crazy. I read this article about Seattle that they’re like, multi-family permits are down this year, so the Department of permitting is not making enough money. So they decided to raise the cost of permits for single family homes. Oh boy, . It’s like, okay, yay. That’s gonna help .

James:
Do you know why

Dave:
Made this decision?

James:
What you, how long it took to permit a big multifamily building in Seattle? It was like a four year permit. It’s insane. It’s

Dave:
Like, no wonder if people aren’t doing it,

James:
You wonder why you’re not getting any money. It’s ’cause you’re doing a bad job. You don’t get paid for doing a bad job. No one wants to work with you anymore. So it’s like, why don’t you focus on how do you get that permit issued in nine months so people don’t get stretched out for four years? Uh, and the reason a lot of those permits exploded because by the time these guys were ready to build rates had spiked, rents had flattened and values had dropped and they couldn’t even build it. So they killed off their own inventory. Don’t get me started on that . That is just absurd.

Dave:
All right, well what a great place to end. Now that we’ve argued about all these topics. I don’t even know who stands where on each of these topics, but hopefully you all got something out of this. ’cause we, we shared a lot of opinions about a lot of potential ideas. And I think the interesting thing here is that, you know, even last week, some of these are ideas, but we’re starting to see some of them come to life. Like we have seen in executive order, things are starting to take shape. So we’ll definitely keep you posted as we learn more about each of these topics.

James:
C can we get one prediction before we sign off please? I got the Seahawks 25, 21 tight game

Kathy:
Ram’s 30 Seahawks 29. Oh, okay. 29. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t even know if those numbers add up in football, but that’s what I’m predicting.

Henry:
Who you got Henry? I mean, I’m from Bakersfield, which is like an hour north of LA buddy so go

Dave:
Rams. All right James, I’m with you on the Seahawks. We’ll we’ll fight them.

Kathy:
Alright Henry, we’re a team again.

Dave:
I know. What are we betting stakes. Stakes are stakes. Next time we see you guys,

Henry:
Oh, uh, let’s do stakes and let’s do stakes in Seattle in March.

Dave:
All right. Stakes are stakes. Rams. Were Seahawks. Go Seahawks. All right. Thank you guys all for sticking around and listening to us ramble about all this stuff. . We appreciate you all listening to this episode on the market and we’ll see you next time.

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